Heater in center of firewall??? - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

wormie · 10-14-2012, 01:38 PM

Installed my heater in stock position as per instructions.

Disapointed with not having room for a glovebox.

What would be the problem with installing the heater in the middle of the dash?

Room for the gauges? Using the FFR speedhut gauges and dash not mounted yet... But the gauges don't seem to take up much depth behind the dash...

Using a 97 SOHC 4.6 with mild homemade wire diet means I don't have too much wires, no pod and I could further shorthen what's left of wires going to the right side. Also, I'll have to install FFR wipers for inspection/registration.

Anyone done a center heater? Pixs please!

-W

Bob Taylor · 10-14-2012, 03:13 PM

I have the whitby cube heater but no pix try their website whitbymototcars.com Bob

wormie · 10-14-2012, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Taylor

I have the whitby cube heater but no pix try their website whitbymototcars.com Bob

Well I have already bought the FFR heater. The one you quote does install center based on the pictures in Withby's website, but I don't know how deep it requires btw dash and firewall.

Anyone else has the FFR heater and did not install in the stock location?

Avalanche325 · 10-14-2012, 04:23 PM

I wanted heat, a full glove box, clean firewall, and not suck air from the engine compartment.

I built a custom plenum and have the fan and heater core behind the dash side by side. The dash is not on yet, but the test run shows that it will work but will be VERY VERY tight.

There is some room at the bottom, so it should be fine for the switches. I am keeping the dash fairly clean. Ign, horn, wiper, fans, maybe heater controls. Everything else will be under dash switches.

Defroster ducts are going to be the biggest challange. The drivers side one points right at the back of a gauge. But the hose is very pliable. I am sure it can be squished in.

Hunter 2 · 10-14-2012, 04:31 PM

....

Thumper135 · 10-14-2012, 05:06 PM

My first question here is, have you mounted your fire wall wet? If not, I would highly suggest the fire wall extension kit from one of the venders here on the site, or making your own like I did. The 2 inches it moves the fire wall forward doesn’t sound like much, but it adds a crap load of room behind the dash for this process (and other things you may want to do) I realized this after I had my fire wall mounted, so I tore it off and started over in that area. I also had to remove my center dash hoop support to locate the heater core where I wanted it, but I’m adding the original look tubes that run up from the trans tunnel to that hoop to make up the support. I have the original mechanical gages with my speedo mounted in the center, and I still have lots of room behind the dash. I simply split the heater core and blower, and like many others here, I made a plenum to connect the two after I had them mounted.
Pics when I get home from work tonight……..

AC Bill · 10-14-2012, 05:53 PM

I can't see the Vintage Air (FFR optional one) fitting in the center without the Firewall forward mod..
With the standard gauge layout, switch's etc., it's pretty darn "busy" in that area. The center of the firewall is also a good spot for mounting terminals bars, etc..Some just mount a fake glove box door for the look.

It's fairly easy to add a small storage compartment in the rear cockpit/trunk wall, or just buy a set of Earl's door trim panels with the pockets.
Other than my registration papers, which I tuck, under the flip up seat bottom, I only have a cell phone and garage door opener to store. Both fit in the door trim pocket. Everything else I may need, gloves, toque, sun-screen lotion, and maybe a sweater, go in the trunk.
What do you really need to carry up front otherwise? Sunglasses are on my face, cup holders for coffee/pop.

wormie · 10-14-2012, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC Bill

Some just mount a fake glove box door for the look.)

Well looks is in part the justification... I'm still kind of new at this and, now that I've had my first start and go-kart and with a long winter coming along, I find my focus changing a bit towards more confort creatures and finishing touches, you know it's a completely new feeling to realize that the essential works and this is actually going to be a road worthy automobile some day next spring:

.looking at dash pictures I find the ones w/o glovebox look very plain on the passenger side.
.I can't see the point of a fake door, of for that matter 200$ for a glove box 1.5" deep.
.I'm looking at leather hides and don't need to pay for more vinyl I won't use.
.My lighting switches

Are there only Alex's and Finishilines who carry globe boxes?

Cutting the opening, cutting a door, knob and hinges should all be feasible, maybe behind the door all I have is a square box with depth subject to the space left in back of the heater... but right now I'm looking at my space in dash being nowhere near as busy as seen in the build manual for a 4.6 donor build (and a box full of dieted wires), the gauges not being very deep so I can't see why the heater can't go in the middle and give me more space for the glove box...

I guess I need to mount the gauges and test fit the dash, measure the current depth of the heater installed on the right side and see where that takes me...

But back to my original question: the only issue is with the space for the gauges?

The comment about the defrost hoses is also duly noted (need defrost for safety!).

Thumper and Hunter2: I'd love to see your pics.

I have though of doing a plenum also to cover the heater and get fresh air from the brake opening at the front... so I can use the fan for cold air in the summer and turn heater on in the spring and fall when needed. Would getting air from the cockpit also achieve this??? Air velocity yes, but maybe not as cold air as coming from the front. would make my live much easier!

With both halves of the heater inside the dash, that's a lot more in-dash volume being used...

Jack be Quick · 10-14-2012, 06:58 PM

Here are some shots from my build.

I used an FFMetal firewall forward, did a custom plenum, and some routing with assistance of a NorthRacecars defrost kit to get a shallow glovebox and a clean firewall.

Hunter 2 · 10-14-2012, 07:28 PM

....

AC Bill · 10-14-2012, 10:31 PM

"But back to my original question: the only issue is with the space for the gauges?"

If your wanting an under-dash panel, perhaps with 12v power outlet, cockpit lights, hazard switch etc., these will also compromise the space in the dash center area. You also need to allow room for snaking the duct hoses from the heater, to the outlets.

Planning on adding a firewall brace? That's another item in the dash center area, that could compromise the room..

"The comment about the defrost hoses is also duly noted (need defrost for safety!)."

Unless your planning for a softop/hardtop, there is little use for these. I had to have them, to pass the inspection, but with no top, the windscreen is always fog free anyways. If it's snowing out, you got bigger problems to worry about..lol

"I have though of doing a plenum also to cover the heater and get fresh air from the brake opening at the front..."

I fretted, and fretted, about this "fresh air" aspect as well.
Truth is, that driving around in an open cockpit, there is plenty of fresh air. The air in the engine compartment is constantly being refreshed while cruising, so it's not like there is a build up of fumes in there, that the heater blower will suck up.
Again though, if your planning on a top, this aspect could change

[/QUOTE]

Silverstreak02 · 10-14-2012, 11:08 PM

I put the Factory Five heater on the passenger side inside of a box that moves it into the engine compartment some. The extra space moving it forward provided allowed me to also build a custom glove box for the passenger side. Here are pictures of what I did.

Silverstreak02 · 10-14-2012, 11:12 PM

Finished

AC Bill · 10-14-2012, 11:28 PM

Silver streak, That's a great idea!

Since Wormie already has already cut the hole in the firewall, he could easily copy this idea, and still get the glove box he wants..

While on the subject..( learned this trick from another forum member). Loosen the blower motor from the housing, and re-clock it, so all the wires are under the motor, rather than on top of it. Just tidy's up the under hood view a little better.

samadhi · 10-14-2012, 11:46 PM

Silver streak has me reconsidering my no heater position

Thumper135 · 10-15-2012, 12:27 AM

Here is how mine started. The center bar is out and the heater core box is almost center of the car. The blue tape on the fire wall is where I was going to run the water lines through, but now they go through the bottom of the 2” forward extension I made for the firewall. There are a couple of pics that show the duct work I made to connect the two. Now the whole thing is 2” forward of its starting location so I can have the glove box as well. The glove box will be 2.5” deep and clear the blower motor by 1/16”. this allows for a clean firewall and I still have my heater.

MPTech · 10-15-2012, 12:28 AM

I mocked up my Vintage Air unit (after I modified it) and also plan to have my glove-box with the fuse panel behind it. I think everything will fit (or I'll make it), but I think the firewall forward is a must. I built my own.

Here's my glove-box / fuse panel.
My new Glovebox (and a little something extra)

And my modified Heater:
Finished fabbing my behind dash heater

AC Bill · 10-15-2012, 06:43 PM

Both Thumper's and MP's heaters are different from the Vintage Air heater that I rec'd. I beleive they are earlier models, with only two outlets. Slightly different in other ways as well.

CCRsAC · 10-15-2012, 06:49 PM

I have the FFR / Vintage Air heater mounted in the recommended location and then fabricated a glovebox using a piece of .025 aluminum. The box is only about 1" deep, but it is sufficient to hold a cell phone, maps, keys, insurance card, etc... and completes the look of the dash.

JJ'snakepit · 10-15-2012, 07:17 PM

Firewall forward 3 inches. Also extended down to the bottom of the 2"bar. This creates a space for Air channel. Pictures... I made my own box for the exchanger to sit on top of the channel and the blower to fit on it forcing the air down throught the exchanger and through the channel. I have since then moved the blower to the top of the exchanger. The last picture show the blower and venting complete.

wormie · 10-16-2012, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC Bill

Both Thumper's and MP's heaters are different from the Vintage Air heater that I rec'd. I beleive they are earlier models, with only two outlets. Slightly different in other ways as well.

Indeed, the blower looks much bigger than what I have...

wormie · 10-16-2012, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samadhi

Silver streak has me reconsidering my no heater position

I had seen his forward box on another thread. Very nice indeed. the right side corner might have to be cut at some angle to allow room for the wiper assembly...

The glovebox looks feasible also...Maybe I would keep the inside of it square for a flat bottom.

Will I have the courage to cut through my dash? Shears won't do enough a nice job and cut too quickly. Jigsaw than filing to have as much a smooth finish as possible? How else could I cut this up... my cuts so far were not going to be visible, so shears did a great job.

I'll have to source a thicker aluminum for the door.

wormie · 10-16-2012, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC Bill

"But back to my original question: the only issue is with the space for the gauges?"

If your wanting an under-dash panel, perhaps with 12v power outlet, cockpit lights, hazard switch etc., these will also compromise the space in the dash center area. You also need to allow room for snaking the duct hoses from the heater, to the outlets.

Planning on adding a firewall brace? That's another item in the dash center area, that could compromise the room..

"The comment about the defrost hoses is also duly noted (need defrost for safety!)."

Unless your planning for a softop/hardtop, there is little use for these. I had to have them, to pass the inspection, but with no top, the windscreen is always fog free anyways. If it's snowing out, you got bigger problems to worry about..lol

"I have though of doing a plenum also to cover the heater and get fresh air from the brake opening at the front..."

I fretted, and fretted, about this "fresh air" aspect as well.
Truth is, that driving around in an open cockpit, there is plenty of fresh air. The air in the engine compartment is constantly being refreshed while cruising, so it's not like there is a build up of fumes in there, that the heater blower will suck up.
Again though, if your planning on a top, this aspect could change

[/QUOTE]

OK in order... Yes for the underdash, mostly footbox lights but those could be off to the sides and 12V outlets. My light switches (main, hi/lo, fog, interior) will go on a separate mini panel completely to the left near the windshield post, under the dash where it curves.

Defrost for safety: I also meant for the safety inspection, madatory up here. But the top has always been in the background as a futures (3,000$ for a FFR Top????), thanks for reminding me of that, which also applies to the fresh air issue, altough I might say that pulling air from the cockpit makes it real clean and easy!

Silverstreak02 · 10-16-2012, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wormie

I had seen his forward box on another thread. Very nice indeed. the right side corner might have to be cut at some angle to allow room for the wiper assembly...

The glovebox looks feasible also...Maybe I would keep the inside of it square for a flat bottom.

Will I have the courage to cut through my dash? Shears won't do enough a nice job and cut too quickly. Jigsaw than filing to have as much a smooth finish as possible? How else could I cut this up... my cuts so far were not going to be visible, so shears did a great job.

I'll have to source a thicker aluminum for the door.

The wiper motor fit fine in the Factory Five standard location. I made a bracket for the motor that secured the motor tightly and also spaced it away from the firewall. The drive tubing cut across the corner like you suspected, but is about a half in in front of the box.

This is what my defroster and heat ducting looks like.

I used 1/8" aluminum for the door and a .040 piece for the inner panel.

Jeff

wormie · 11-01-2012, 01:21 PM

After lots of courage and effort (gosh silicone is a good adhesive!) I remove the firewall, cut it open and build silverstreak's heater forward box... and quite happy with it, shoud give me a nice glove box depth.

Now on to the dash and glove box. My door is already shaped from 1/8 alum. It will take another ounce of courage to cut open the dash!

Avalanche325 · 11-01-2012, 10:35 PM

Here is mine. I don't have the FFR heater. Mine has the three control knobs and the heat dumps out at the bottom. I may have to do something to direct the heat to the footboxes.

Standard firewall. FFR gauges. Tight, I mean tight, gauge clearance. But it clears. I did not mount anything to the firewall. There is a seperate mounting plate and a small gap between that and the fire wall. The whole heater and plenum is a single unit. The defroster ducts are going to have to be squished in.

I did not have to cut the middle support and have room for a full glove box.

Switches will clear as there is more room near the bottom of the dash. I am doing the headlight switch left of the steering wheel.

wormie · 11-01-2012, 11:33 PM

Wow avalanche, that's almost on the driver's side!
Having not given up on having a top someday I went with the air intake on the engine side. May still do a plenum or seal the motor and connect a hose to grab fresh air from the front of the car.

Avalanche325 · 11-01-2012, 11:46 PM

The heater core is centered. The fan is just to the right of the steering shaft.

Silverstreak02 · 11-03-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wormie

After lots of courage and effort (gosh silicone is a good adhesive!) I remove the firewall, cut it open and build silverstreak's heater forward box... and quite happy with it, shoud give me a nice glove box depth.

Now on to the dash and glove box. My door is already shaped from 1/8 alum. It will take another ounce of courage to cut open the dash!

Wormie
You did a great job building the heater forward box. I'm glad my pictures helped.

Jeff

wormie · 11-03-2012, 09:26 PM

We ought to call it the Silverstreak heater mod...

Wired the wipers and test fitted the location of the motor... So I'm a little concerned over the interference with the corner of the box... Did you move the motor 2" forward as well with your bracket? No issues with hooking up to the wiper boxes this far up front? Hopefully the MkIV won't make much a difference here...

Haven't had the courage to cut the dash yet for the glovebox... Have to figure how to mount the hinge and still cover the door with leather... Any bright ideas????