Are the guys experiencing these snap spins running mediocore tires or excessive power?
i have 380hp/400 ft*lb at the rear tires. Runing T5 tranny and 3.55 rear gears, and pretty sticky nitto nt05 (not drag radials) tires. I have to work to get the car to spin the tires in 1st gear. 2Nd gear at 15 or 25 no way to get it to spin ~ can't imagine what it would take to spin at 70
Glad you are OK. Are your pants dry yet? You just learned lesson number one of high performance driving.
ALL CONTROL INPUTS NEED TO BE DONE SLOWLY AT FIRST, THEN SPEEDED UP.
Don't twitch the steering wheel, move it slowly the first few degrees.
Push on the gas and brake pedals as if there is a raw egg between the pedal and your foot. EASE on the gas slowly and the same with the brake. Fast inputs will cause the car to react by loading up the tires too fast at one end or the other and when they are overloaded they will slip. A tire can only handle so much load, whether it is side load or brake or engine inputs. You balance a car by allowing the tires time to do their job. Stomping on the gas too fast and you get your result. Lots of good tips here.
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What you are describing is not quite "Trailing Throttle Oversteer" or "Lift-off oversteer" but some of the principles might be the same. You put the car into a turn, which loaded the outside tires and made the inside tires 'light'. You then gave it too much gas, which overpowered the light inner rear causing it to spin. The engine then revs and the tire hits unevenness in the road which has a jarring effect on the outer wheel which takes it past it's traction envelope, then you are sliding. It all happens very fast.
These cars are all built different and will respond in different ways. In a FF5 the gas tank is the rear most item of significant mass, so a full tank would be different than a half tank sloshing around. Some builders put limited slip diffs in their cars, live axel vs independent, power steering vs manual, and tires and shocks, etc, etc.
If you have manual steering you can let go of the steering wheel and the car should steer into the turn much faster than you can. Feather the gas to shift the weight back onto the rears to get them to bite. IF the rear comes back THEN you get into the clutch and steer the car back into the lane you started in. You may or may not reign it in this fashion, it just depends on how upset you made the car in the first place. Yes I have done this (in a 911); no, it's no fun on public roads...
If you don't have ABS then pushing both pedals in (clutch and brake) is a losing proposition because the car is moving, some of the tires have no traction and will want to lock up with even a little pressure (and your panic braking) so they will have zero directional control and little hope of regaining it. If the car is not pointing forward and the fronts do respond to the braking command you WILL end swap, every time. Modern ABS systems will not let the wheels lock up because a locked up wheel has no directional control.
If you don't watch it, you should start watching Top Gear. Watch when The Stig takes a super car around the track on the edge of it's performance envelope. You will see his gloves constantly flicking to the outside of a turn as the car's rear starts to step out. He never lifts off the gas, just takes the outward pressure off the rear tires momentarily by reducing the steering input to the car.
It should go without saying don't try to learn any of this on public roads. Track day events should be almost manditory for owning cars this powerful. Even if you never do track day events you should read "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez. The biggest lesson is car composure, or learning to pay attention to which wheels are loaded and which are unloaded at any moment in time.
Best advice is go participate in all the autocrosses you can. Relatively safe environment to practice in (few hard things to run into, relatively low speeds - more like what you will experience in street driving.) Learn the limits of grip and good driving techniques. Ride with the best performers, watch what they do inside the car. Feel what their cars feel like at the limits.
If your car starts doing something you don't want it to do, undo what you just did to cause it.
Smoooooooth inputs. Not slow inputs, smooth. No light switch movements.
I cannot overstate the value of autocrossing.
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You should have YOUR head examined.
Here's a video of an autocross I did over the summer - unfortunately there's no audio. But at around the 50 second mark, I'm coming around a hard left hander, and the rear starts to come around from too much throttle. I steered into the slide but wasn't able to slow enough to make the turn so went both feet in until the car slowed enough that the front wheels regained traction and was able to just make the turn without stalling etc.
At the end of the run I'm coming around a big 180* sweeper into a slight left, then right. I give it a little too much gas, the rear starts coming around, I correct it steering to the left, the rear catches, and now I'm headed towards the timing gear - not good! I was able to catch it again and slip by without hitting anything. This was my first run on the course, so it was my first look at it.
I took a Skip Barber "Driving School" class even though I have been correcting in snow all my life. One of the three days, they give you an overpowered Dodge pick-up truck, with bald tires, a ton of sandbags in the bed, and put you out on a wet skid-pad with an instructor. One day, we drove a Viper around the mini-course which seems so small as to have been built for go-carts,and is fraught with opportunities to put it into the weeds.
Never too old to learn more...I had so much fun, the next summer I took the MX-5 Miata "three day racing course". Neither was cheap , but what else will plaster a smile on your face for thirty six hours straight ?????? Especially while flogging someone else's car ? .
This is a very interesting thread. A plethora of information. For me, and a lot of people I know, Seat time is everything. Not very many spins in any car are the same. There are way too many variables to deal with. I was taught, if you are unfamiliar with a vehicle and you want to learn more about it, that is the vehicle you need to be spinning around to get used to how it all feels just before it all goes wrong and you end up doing these adventures places you don't want. One key thing I learned was what they called “the point of return” Simply put, when the car breaks loose and you have steered into the slide to catch it, there is a point where you can actually feel the car start to come out of its slid and regain traction. Most times, this is only a split second or so, but this is where you will need to be turning back the opposite direction to prevent the car from whipping back around the other direction, like mentioned elsewhere here. I’ve discovered that this can only be found by driving the car in question and letting it spin (in a large open area) and getting used to how it reacts. The biggest problem here for me is, these cars are very short compared to most cars and are stupid with power (mine included) making this adventure very quick. Auto Cross is one of the best ways I found to have fun and learn just how a vehicle will react. It’s worth the money to go out and spin your tires off all day. An open, vacant, snowy parking lot can be just as much fun. Just know where all the light poles are.
I’m glad to hear your little adventure turned out with only your ego damaged. I wish I could say the same thing about some of mine.
Have fun
My build is going on 8 years old and even thought I only have about 6,000 miles on my tires it is recommended to replace your tires every 6 years. Tires can start to dry rot at this age and loose traction. Since my car is stored and rarely see sun light my tires are still in good condition but I know a new set of tires would definetly get better traction.
So this is my thought. Finally sign up for autocross next year and use up these tire before I spend money on a quailty set of tires.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one scared of my car. I have never spun out but the back end has broken loose a few times but I was able to get off of the gas in time.
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#4511 delivered 7/11/03 Born on 7/4/04. Every morning when I leave for work I pause as I walk by my FFR. Life is good!
A couple of thoughts.
If you are already spinning imagine it from a sky view. You were going around a curve , a right curve for example,and the rear came out and and kept coming around so now your are spinning. But the car continues to somewhat follow the curve your were in.If you turn to the right, the overall trajectory of the spinning car will be more to the right, a little bit tighter curve. If you turn to the left, as in trying to catch the spin, the overall trajectory of the car will be more to the left, or a slightly wider curve. If you lock all four wheels w/ the brakes, the overall trajectory becomes a straight line. REAL hard to think about all this but it can help you stay between the curbs if you happen to spin halfway through an onramp.
RE; autocross. Go ahead and run on your street tires no matter how bad you think they may be. The less traction you have makes everything happen at a slower pace and a lower speed so this is actually a good thing for a beginner. You will NOT be fast, you will be blown away by a Miata or a Civic, so look at your times and just try to improve each run compared to the run before. Have fun. And if any of you are in the Wash DC area, email me.
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Book "Bob Bondurant on high performance driving" is a good read for the fundamentals of proper driving techniques and explaining weight transfer and how it effects handling ~ also how to use it to correct your car in various situations.
Start with this for some theory and add autocrossing for some practical experience. Should be a bare minimum for most drivers of these cars …
"Two feet in"=Pushing in both the clutch and brake.
Jeff
I was under the impression that 2 feet in ment. that you (the driver) brings both feet in towards him/her self. as hitting the brake during a spin can cause adverse things to happen and pushing in the clutch takes the the engines resistance to slow the tires. I was under the impretion that you turn to the rear and stay off the break, clutch and gas. the idea was to slow the tires down naturaly and not stop them from spinning (lock them up). Or was taught wrong?
Yep precisely Mike. This is why I wish to go to a 'drift school' in my little Miata before I step up to one of FFR's offerings with a lot more power.
Not because I want to learn how to drift for fun, rather because I want to learn how to control an accidental oversteer situation and not panic lift off/brake.
It's bad enough in the Miata with ~130bhp let alone something with 300-400bhp.
Not because I want to learn how to drift for fun, rather because I want to learn how to control an accidental oversteer situation and not panic lift off/brake.
Let me clarify a little. I don't have anything against the drifting crowd - it's fun to watch, and it definately requires car control skills, but it's also the slow way around the track.
What is popularly referred to as "drifting" today, would be more correctly called "powersliding".
When you go around a corner (in any car) the tires deflect and develop a "slip angle". When you exceed the limit of the tires' adhesion, it quits slipping and starts sliding. The problem with sliding is that any little jostling of the car is trying (hard) to put you (completely) out of control. If you go back and look at the SF video, be sure to notice the tire marks where he obviously repeatedly practiced all those moves.
Cars go faster when you have the front wheels straight. A "drift" allows you to do that through a corner. Get to the end of the straight, brake in a straight line, turn the wheel to get the car turning, and start applying power until you get the steering wheel straight. You're now steering the car through the rest of the corner (mainly) with the throttle. If you have to countersteer you've overcooked it - you went into the corner or the throttle too hard and now you've got a slide (or you're about to).
Well executed, you've got a really fast line through the corner and it's a thing of beauty to watch. It's also quite safe because you're still within the limits of the tires' adhesion. You've still got room to scrub off some speed, or hang the rear out a little further on the way out of the corner (but you'd better not dump the throttle once you've hung the rear out).
Among the cars most perfectly suited for that driving style (all time): C-car and Porsche 911. It's (precisely) what they were built to do.
It's not necessarily easy, it doesn't come naturally to most people. It's a skill, you have to work at it + practice it.
Working at it will make you a better driver.
Autocross is the place to work at it.
If you're doing it right you'll even get to work on your powersliding and spin control "mad skilzzz" occasionally...
I don't have anything against the drifting crowd - it's fun to watch, and it definately requires car control skills, but it's also the slow way around the track.
As my friend Clemens Burger (4 time B Modified national champion) says "There is a difference between driving fast and putting on a show"
The ONE thing I preach to all my students, no matter the car, is SMOOTH INPUTS. Don't upset the car, work within it's and your capabilities. Like all others have said, our roadsters are extreme, like an older Porsche, and snap-spin is a way of life.
I have taught many cobra owners, and still push mine to it's very limits. Gotta know how far it can go before I become a passenger.
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FFR5148K MkII Roadster, FRP 306 345HP w/ carb, 3-link, disc brakes, Still Gel-Coat Grey! Now with roll cage and more track stuff, wrecked, beaten, man-handled, cut up, butchered, Freaky body mods, sat on by HOOTERS girls, still barely street legal.
Lots of good info above. As an avid Auto-x guy I second the recommendation that you go to an Auto-x event. A lot of SCCA events have test and tune days where you can pay a fee and you will get a lot more runs then you will get at a points event, you can adjust tire pressures, etc. You may also have the option of riding along with other drivers. Since your snap oversteer occured at 25 mph I think the Auto-x experience is worth a look, the worst thing that will happen is you will hit a few cones. The roadster is like a sprint car for the street, even with moderate HP. I have the same problem with my Coupe throttle application has to be conservative any time a turn, even a slight one, is involved. The short wheel base of the roadster makes it fast and nimble but that takes some practice to master.
HTH
CB
Sat. at VIR I spun downhill between turns 15 and 16 going 100 or so. Spun 2 loops one way and 1 loop the other. Flat spotted all four tires. These cars change direction really fast. Even with all the seat time I have, it sneaks up on you!
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FFR3842, Levy Forged 349ci/500hp, AFR185's, Wilwood 6/4 piston Superlites, Koni DAs, Magnesium bellhousing and Tilton Triple disk clutch, GF5R dog ringed 5 speed, 3link, VPM sway bars, Hoosier A6s, CCW forged wheels, wings, undertray, diffuser
Not only just attending an AutoX event but in the beginning and end of the season both Philly SCCA and NNJ chapter offer AutoX school. I finally had the time and the weather cooperated so I attended the Sept class. Not only do you learn basic racing skills many mentioned above but then there is the driving day.
You will spend most of the driving day in small groups all runs with an instructor. Objective take you car right to the edge to find out where it is. Naturally are you going to do A LOT of spinning out? Sure are, great practice and its ok to make a mess of the course. See going to an event with the idea of pushing your car is going to be frustrating day. You are going to be lost in the course and not really driving more of pointing and shooting to the next gate/cone.
In the school you not only learn the edge, you learn what to do at the edge, and you get to experiment with recovery techniques as a last ditch effort before all is lost and just go with the two feet in.
I have become very schooled at spinning out and also not spinning out its amazing how controlled the situation can become if you anticipate loosing the rear end but just at that moment you let off the throttle just a wee bit and the rear end can come right back in line. I have even used tail spin to finish a turn that I got pinched into because of a bad line from the prior cone.
I am glad your introduction to powerful car short wheel base was not a bad one. It goes without saying but now that our temps are dropping the tires become harder and will cut loose even sooner with less warning. These cars dont need to have the pedal mashed to pass a truck and if you do maybe you should wait for the next opening in the on coming traffic
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Are the guys experiencing these snap spins running mediocore tires or excessive power?
i have 380hp/400 ft*lb at the rear tires. Runing T5 tranny and 3.55 rear gears, and pretty sticky nitto nt05 (not drag radials) tires. I have to work to get the car to spin the tires in 1st gear. 2Nd gear at 15 or 25 no way to get it to spin ~ can't imagine what it would take to spin at 70
He had his problem because he attempted and abrupt pass at speed. Go in a big open parking lot, as you are rolling into second turn the wheel almost a half a turn and mash the pedal, you will spin out.
Fortunately it hasn't happened to you yet and if you drive at or about the speed limits you will probably never spin out. But with the softer high performance tires when they go they will go very quick, you will end up somewhere you didn't anticipate with out even knowing how you got there.
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300+hp tagged race car PRICELESS !! Best ET 12.898 @ 108.37 N/A
Completed: Passed PA Insp 3/19/12 Tagged 4/14/12
Mk III #5294 -Purchased 1/08,302 T5, 3-link, 3.55 posi, 13" Cobra brakes, SAI, twEECer R/T, BE & EEC Analyzer YouTube Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/joeembery#p/u
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its amazing how controlled the situation can become if you anticipate loosing the rear end but just at that moment you let off the throttle just a wee bit and the rear end can come right back in line.
It's also amazing how much fun it is once you've learned to manipulate your inputs to get the car to work for you (as in - it's not trying to kill you any more, lol).
Wednesday, October 17th--I don't mean to steal this thread, but that Ken Block video driving through San Francisco has to be one of the greatest videos I've ever seen. Thanks for posting it Crash. It reminded me of the video of the guy driving through the streets of Paris in the Ferrari in the early morning but without the streets blocked off. And, who do you have to know to get the city of San Francisco to block off half of the city just to make a video? The only thing I would have added would be to have Ken Block "drift" down Lombardi Street and have the cops waiting at the bottom for him. I laughed all the way through the video. What a good way to start the morning. Paul
I've been loving watching the many responses to this thread. Thats exactly why I posted about my spin. I know many more of you out there have spun, and told exactly NO ONE. I get it. But I figured I would learn a LOT (I did) and hear some great stories, so it was worth it to put my ego down and tell the tale.
Cheers everyone.
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FFR 7386 MK IV Roadster
302 Block/347 Stroker/Mass-Flo/TKO 500/8.8 Moser Rear/Manual Brakes & Steering
Build Began 12/6/2010
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Bob Cowan thanks for the UTube link (VIR Cobra Flip - YouTube). I think my wreck in May was exactly the same spin except I was very lucky and did not have a roll over probably because I was going a lot slower.
I was showing off going north on a asphalt city street when the rear end broke loose on a full throttle 6,000 RPM 1-2 (C6 automatic) shift. The F5 ended up spinning around and going backwards 270 degrees (front end pointed east) for about 40'. The passenger side of the body barely missing a large concrete base for a tall light poll. The passenger rear tire hit the lower part of the base destroying the rear end housing, an axle, the third link crossover bar, the passenger rear control arm, rear wheel, Sumitomo HP 10.5 inch passenger tire.
The impact with a ditch a few feet later was hard enough to stop the backward travel throwing the front end around to the north coming to rest against a street sign slightly damaging the driver side front fender.
I studied the skid marks and am still not sure what happened. I was very lucky that the oncoming traffic could stop and watch the entire skid. I remember hitting the brakes but it all happened so fast there is no way I could steer out of the skid. I've driven a lot in the snow and ice and this was not like a slick road slide I could steer out of.
I did get the individual wheel weights corrected by a local racer (added 35 pounds to the right rear), dropped the tire pressure to 20 pounds in the rear, changed the gear ratio to 3:08 (from 3:55), and got a new front end alignment. The 3:08 was mainly to drop the RPM on the highway. I'm happy with that. It also seemed to drop the violence on acceleration giving me more courage.
The other day I got on it hard from a stop and at about 5500 RPM in first gear and I swear I felt the rear end wiggle like it was ready to break loose. I panicked and let off the gas and everything was OK. Now I am spooked again.
My 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8 automatic often does a wiggle on WOT in the first couple of gears but it always strays straight. Idiot proof where the F5 is not. I still have to learn to stay out of it or learn to drive better. Everytime I see an F5 crash on a spinout I realize how lucky I was. It cost me a couple of thousand but it could have been so much worse.
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Last edited by Warsaw Jim; 10-20-2012 at 06:48 AM..
The only thing I would have added would be to have Ken Block "drift" down Lombardi Street and have the cops waiting at the bottom for him. I laughed all the way through the video. What a good way to start the morning. Paul
This has turned into a great, informative, thread.
I think Ken Block did go up Lombard Street.
__________________ Tom
FFR 4040 MKII, IRS, 5.0 w/Cam, Super S pipes, March pulleys, Levy Super Alloy T5, Aluminum Flywheel, Ram clutch, 3.27 LSD, Cobra front brakes, Cobra R wheels, double hoops, driver FB mod, Kirkey Vintage 41 w/heaters, Tunnel mounted BMW E-brake handle, custom shifter/brake and cubby bezels, Mercedes premium carpet.
If you didn't build it, you can't brag about it. Just sayin'.
Bill mentioned doing a class in the open wheel formula cars, we had a small group go out a few years ago, and I LOVE driving the Roos cars. If you ever think you want to give it a shot, let me know I'd probably be into doing a half day.
I think you also got a lot of good advice here, I think one of the biggest things is that roll into and out of the gas. We have so much torque, its just begging to break the tires free, I still don't think I have 'punched' it. It also sounds like you continued to spin in one direction, so I am guessing you got the clutch and brakes in.
You said you turned into the spin, on these cars I've seen a number of accounts where the driver turns back in, and then gets off the gas which causes the car to snap back and spin in the opposite direction, often with much worse results!
-Scott
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MKIII Roadster #5835; IRS, Team III Wheels, Kuhmo XS Tires
Anderson Performance 408 Engine; Levy T5 Transmission
Engine Installed July 4th, First start July 5th 2009
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On the Road July 2011
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You just learned lesson number one of high performance driving. 
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