Have been wanting to do this for a long time but in state of info overload. Want to do this myself (except paint) with a little help from my friends. Good with tools, have an empty garage bay. Have maintained and tracked prepped my boxster and cayman s over the last 10 years. Last build was a 1970 dune buggy over a beetle. Have 35k budget and want to do this over about 2 years. What do I order? What research do I do first? Donor car or all new? Would appreciate any advice. Know I really want to do this but not really sure how to start.
Any advice for this noobie would be appreciated. Thanks.
First think about how you want to use the car and then research this forum and you will find most of your answers. If you aren't sure about something please ask you get the answers you are looking for.
__________________ gordon@levyracing.com Pro Builder and Go Fast Specialist
99/2000 NASA PSO Champion in a FFR
2005 FFR Challenge West coast Champions 2nd 2005 Nationals Sponsor for Tony B. ST-2 National Champion 2007
2009 TTC runner up-2010 TTB Runner up
Over 155 Turnkey FFR's in 16 years and still counting
First think about how you want to use the car and then research this forum and you will find most of your answers. If you aren't sure about something please ask you get the answers you are looking for.
What Gordon said.
Show car? Street car? Track or autocross? Replica of a certain CSX car?
Knowing what you want it to be when you are finished will help you make a plan.
Find some of the graduation threads and look at lots of finshed cars, that might help.
__________________
FFR #7124 Mk 3.1, Levy 5 link, LCA's & brakes, 17" Halibrands, electric PS, SAI, Eibach springs, BOSS 427w, webers, hood louvers, tilt front. Delivered 12/23/09, 1st start 02/19/12. 1st go cart 03/03/12. Titled 10/3/12.
"I'm basing it on a collective interpretation of these particular cars. And whatever the hell I like". The Federalist Patriot Build blog: www.myersfamilyffrbuild.blogspot.com
What do I order? What research do I do first? Donor car or all new? Would appreciate any advice. Know I really want to do this but not really sure how to start.
The million dollar questions... We all can tell you what to do and which options to go with but its your car so do it the way you want. Some guys (like me) would tell you to go with a complete kit if you don't want to hassle with tearing apart an old car and using used parts on your new car. Others say save your money and use a donor. With your budget, you could go with an complete kit and be ok. Like others have said, decide what you want. read the forum and go through each system and keep a list, say power steering or not, IRS or 3 link. When you think you have decided, order the kit and let the adventure begin. I found the following text from another poster helpful but know it's older information and the links are probably not all working. I hope it helps... and, I'm excited for you, it's a lot of fun!
lessons learned
Hi everybody,
This information is meant for people considering buying a kit or who are about to start building a kit.
I just titled my roadster. Building it was a lot of fun and a dream come true. During my build I gathered lots of information from the forum. It is time to give something back. This is my “Lessons learned” story.
I bought the complete KIT (mark 3.1 10-2008) with IRS, pre-drilled holes in the body, modern gauges, heater, wipers.
My background: I have repaired cars in the 70's. Changing the clutch, a valve and making my own electonic ignition (tyristor) were my biggest achievements. My current job has nothing to do with cars or even manual labor.
I live in The Netherlands. Everything is metric here. Even Fords are all metric; bolts, nuts and threads, you name it. We do not have 5/8 spanners. We have a 15 spanner, which means 15 millimeter.
Another big difference is getting the title for the car. I think it is about 10 times harder and the cost varies between $8000,- and 'tremendous'.
Good asumptions
No pressure in time, no deadline's
A hundred times the question was raised when it will be finished. My answer was. I have enough deadlines at my day job. This is hobby, there are no deadlines, there is no time schedule. There is only a working order. This keeps the quality of the work steady. There is a solution for every problem/challenge. Think it over one more day and your solution becomes more simple and therefore better. Take away any time pressue and your joy of building will increase and you might even go faster in the end.
Test as soon as possible
Try everything before making non-regretable moves. Test the electrics before putting everything in the kit. Test glueing the padding to the dash. It is not easy to find glue that sticks. http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/w...7082009570.jpg
Test make a double flair. Test making a bend in the fuel line. Test, test test
Build everything that FFR provided with the complete kit.
This makes many decisions very easy. You will be tempted from day one to buy extra's, specials, improvements. Don't, first assemble what you bought from FFR. In the section “Deviation from FRR complete kit”.
Build in the garage at home.
Very important to build in a place where you can come and go easily. You can stop any time you want and you can start anytime you want. No need finish a certain task immediately. Family is also stakeholder!
Bad assumptions.
The complete kit contains everything I need except paint, wheels, engine, cluch and gearbox.
Wrong, wrong.
I have bought at least $1000,- of miscelanious drills, wire, connetors, side indicator lights, fog lamp, all the switches on the dash, extra breaklines, gearbox oil etc.
I will spend all my time on the assembly of the complete kit.
I did not have the suppliers in place. Where do I find a emergency break cable? Who sells fuel pump fittings? Where do I find high grade bolts which are not metric? I think I spent maybe 25% of my time on interfaces. Interfaces between FFR parts and parts supplied by others. Vendor management takes up a lot of time. To cut this time I recommend companies like Breeze.
The donor parts (complete kit) are rusty and come from a junk yard.
No, everything brand new! BTW, no guaranties from FFR.
All the parts of the complete kit should be used.
There are so many extra bolts and nuts supplied. Also many, just in case parts, e.g. Wheel nuts, air filter, oil relocation kit.
Buid manual
In general, very good.
Some points for improvement..
1.The heater holes must be drilled before the firewall is attached. No warning for that in the build manual, because it is an option.
2.A Tremec TKO is considered a big block. Go to that section in the build manual for modifcations (=cut parts off!) on the newly bought gearbox
3.The build manual suggests that the boxes are packed in the building order. This is not the case.
4.The radiator looks symmetric but it is not. The bottom side is the side where there is room for the radiator temperature gauge.
5.The padding on the dash is now different from what I read on the forum. It is one peace, not 2 pieces (foam and a cover). The holes in the dash (modern type) are a little too big. Cut the padding 1 or 2 mm smaller than the hole. Otherwise the guage will 'fall' through the padding.
6.No mention of the radiator sensor. The radiator fan is not operated by the temperature guage but by this sensor or a manual switch. The manual switch is stated on the Ron Francis Harness.
BTW, excellent electrical documentation by Ron Francis.
FFR forum
Very very good source of information. Quick and good help.
One remark. FFR is constantly updating the package they sell. Therefore the problems stated there do not always exist anymore. For example:
pedal box. This works very simple and easy, no problems (I bought the mark 3.1)
rear calipers. On the forum, the emergency cable is attached horizontaly. Mine goes verticaly downwards.
The padding on the dash is no longer 2 pieces, it is one piece.
FFR Support
Excellent. Best way to reach them is by telephone.
Dashboard switches
The dash toggle switches are to sharp and do not pass safety tests. Also, symbols are missing, they are mandatory in the EC.
Original dash, see http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/w...7062009418.jpg
Right rear bumper bolt
To take off the body in a normal way, you have to partly remove the gasoline tank. This is a difficult task. Cutting the bolt in half and use a long nut as a connector, takes care of all the issue's.
rivets
There is room for improvement of the quality of the rivets. Please buy a few rivits in a hardware shop and compare.
Leakage
I could not stop a small leak at the banjo bolt on top of the brake cylinder. I replaced the flat aluminium washer with a softer thicker copper one. http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/w...7122008015.jpg (right hand side black nut)
Regrets
watertank location
water tank is mounted on the inside of the front F panel.
This is above the alternator!! Water overflow sprays on top of the alternator. Bad idea.
Location of the battery box
I placed it at the right hand side in the trunk, towards the front.
2 mistakes.
1. My assumption was that this would balance the weight of the driver. This is not true because this is already done by moving the drive train 1/2”to the right.
2. There was not enough room for the body. It hit the battery.
MK3 builders
Excellent addition of the build manual. Very good source of information. BUILD MANUAL
Breeze
I understood the importance and ease too late. It can be a huge timesaver to buy the engine, clutch and gearbox package as a complete unit.
Special tools
1. I needed a press to force the rear hubs and bearing together. My fridge did not help. http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/IMG_3623.jpg
2. Drilling holes staninless steel is very tricky. Special drill, a firm verical drill and special cooling oil. For example the holes in the overrider, to attach the nudge bar.
3. A 90 degree drilling machine is really helpfull. http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/w...7122008036.jpg
4. Cleco's are extremely helpfull
5. Dremel tool is also extremely helpfull
Good to know / tips
Do not tighten any bolt unless you have to. I have taken out every bolt and nut at least 2 times.
The same goes for the panels. After you have built your first car, you will know the build order much much better! The down side of this is, don't forget to tighten them in the end!
Mark the bolts which you have torqued.
Rivets
There is not one kind but 2 kinds supplied by FFR, long ones and short ones. Now I know.
When the body and the dash is fitted, there is no way you can easily remove the heater, wiper motor and break flued reservoir (in my case attached to the firewall). The reason is that you can not get to the nuts anymore on the rear side of the firewall. Find a solution for that!
How long does it take to build a roadster?
My answer is, the next one will be build at least 3 times faster. This answer also indicates that the experience counts a lot. How long did it take to make the first spoon for mankind? How long does it take now?
Would you recommend FFR?
Yes, no doubt about it. For the European people I would add, be sure to have a way in getting the title for the car before you buy the kit.
2) Lots of good advice already, and so many ways to build, you have to decide early what you want.
3) We're very happy to help you spend your money!
My deciding factors: Affordability, Maintainability, Reliability & Driveability.
__________________ Flying is the answer...What was the question?
Doug
Arrival: 11/26/06 (My Birthday) Roller: 4/20/08 First Start & Gokart: 10/18/08 Body back on for the first time since delivery: 1/18/09 Registered: April 2010 Graduation: When it's finished!
What others said... first decide what you are going to do with the car and have a build plan. That's going to determine a lot. Your budget will produce a nice car.
To be clear though, it's not 100% true to say basic kit is for a donor build, complete kit for a non-donor build. Both of my builds -- Mk3 already done and Mk4 just starting -- are from basic kits and are non-donor builds. Basic kit lets you pick the parts to finish vs. what is supplied in the complete kit. Whether you source from a donor or not (I haven't) is up to you.
Also I would highly recommend buying and downloading the Mk4 build manual. Get the basic kit version if you think you might be building with a donor. Get the complete kit version is you're not going to user a donor, even if you're going to order the basic kit. It's the best $10 you'll spend. The new manual, while still not 100% complete, is a huge upgrade over the previous manuals and really gives a good sense of the work required and sequence of the build.
There's also the option of the build school. I personally haven't attended, but I've talked to several who found it very helpful to make a buy decision and decide if they have the ability to build one of these.
Good luck! It's a blast. Enjoyed my first one so much I'm starting a second.
and do it well with a "basic" car. and still have plenty of car left over for a fun track day. we all like to think the opposite, but 99% of us are average guys driving well below the limits of the car.
a 340HP 302 crate engine is plenty of fun
you don't need costly IRS
you don't need massive brakes
you don't need accessories like passenger rollbar
even in upstate NY, you don't need a heater (heated seats nice touch for like $150)
you don't need top of the line (price) Halibrand III wheels
you don't need leather seats
$35K is entirely plausible, including sales tax, every bit of blue tape, acetone, drill bits, and even a few extra tools you will pick up.
even if for a street car, the only two things i would say definitely upgrade will be a real, baffled racing pan (if you do some autocross), and better tires, which will keep you safer.
Also I would highly recommend buying and downloading the Mk4 build manual. Get the basic kit version if you think you might be building a donor. Get the complete kit version is you're not going to user a donor, even if you're going to order the basic kit. It's the best $10 you'll spend. The new manual, while still not 100% complete, is a huge upgrade over the previous manuals and really gives a good sense of the work required and sequence of the build.
Totally agree on the build manual downloads. I have both and constantly refer to both. I also had them way before I had my kit to familiarize myself with how the build would go.
Of course, the manual is just a guide, and there will be areas you will deviate from it, but it is a good outline.
Also, the photos in the download version are better than the printed version.
35K is very doable. I started with my own clean donor car (95 GT) and base kit plus some options and I am about 20K in right now and almost ready for body and paint. That included selling the carcass and some other parts.
But yeah, this forum will make you spend money I am probably well over 1000 bucks extra because of it.
Good luck!
__________________
FFR Roadster #7651
Ordered 10-14-2011
Delivered 11-14-2011
331/TKO600/4-Link
Suspension done 3-10-2012
Engine/Tranny dropped in 5-17-2012
First start 8-7-2012
First go-cart 10-10-2012
The ugly truth is donor parts are the best value, and upgrade donor parts do more for you than expensive semi race or high end parts.
Avoid the "haute" rod couture that the "big boys" like to pressure every one on - you "must" use CNC billet, or expensive fake aircraft hose, or exotic intakes. All that stuff increases the budget exponentially - but NOT performance. It actually delivers speed or cornering in an inverse relationship to the price. It soaks up a lot of money that could have been used later to sort out the details.. Assembling the kit is about 5% of the job - the factories spend the other 95% driving their prototypes or running the motor on a dyno for weeks. You just got started once the plates are screwed on.
That means avoiding all the trick or hot tips about building a motor, or what special parts you need. In reality, no special part does a better job than factory - it just might allow more of a specific level of performance, but it has to give it up at the other extreme. Cams are a great example. You can go all out for a 270+ grind with extreme top end revs, but try and get the thing started on a frosty November morning.
Build the car to do what will really be done 85% of the time, and you will have no problem getting it under budget. And, it will be much more reliable.
Since lists seem to be part of it, I'll include links of what to reconsider:
Unless someone is an experienced assembler, there are certain things to farm out. Most of us have no clue how to properly gap rings, and the factory doesn't even flare brake lines - they are 100% preflared off site at the subcontractor on machines, because they need them to work perfectly the first time no matter what. It's another area where some brag about their skills, but it's misleading to insist a beginner risk their life doing something even Detroit won't do. Paint is another - too much emphasis on a glowing glossy job, in reality, it's just there to keep the sheet metal from rusting. And kits are 100% composite bodies. Go figure - $8000+ for that is - bluntly - ego tripping. The Rustoleum $50 paint job does the same thing if you spend the same amount of time to fix your flaws and sand it out. Paint only reflects the quality of work underneath it anyway.
Point being, in the kit world, all too many emphasize the visual, not the dynamic execution as timed on the track. That's another decision to make - is this for show, or go? And the results will be obvious for all to see.
Check out the Motts College build school. Great experience. Helps you understand what is involved as you will build a car in 3 day weekend. Its not needed but I'd do it again if i was starting out.
__________________
Picked up Kit 7/20/09, Tear down stage complete, Donor 2003 Cobra 4.6L supercharged, 25k miles on engine, IRS, 6-speed. Attended Build School October 08. Mods done, frame powder coated 12/12 http://venomxs.com/index.php?view=ca...tent&Itemid=57
Check out the Motts College build school. Great experience. Helps you understand what is involved as you will build a car in 3 day weekend. Its not needed but I'd do it again if i was starting out.
DO THIS FIRST!!!! :-) It will answer the questions you have now. Of course, then you will have a lot of other questions ;-)
You might also want to look at base kit plus a Breeze MasterPak. And do not hesitate to take advantage of the vendors, Mark at Breeze and Mike Fortes are both excellent resources.
__________________
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. -- Heinlein again.
The best advise i can give is build it the way you dreamed. Not what others tell you. It might cost a bit more, but you will be happy with it and proud of your build.
The most helpful things we have done are to go to as many get togethers as possible and look at everyones car in detail. Take pictures of what you like.
__________________
MK4 delivery 12/17/11
Build thread: HERE
Epic First start video HERE
427w ford racing, stainless headers, 3link, tko600, 3.55 gears, Jim Inglese weber intake system and a custom paint job from Jeff Miller!
Type 65 Coupe Ordered 01/17/13
Build thread: HERE
347 w. stack injection, IRS, Levy arms, Levy front and rear brakes
The best advise i can give is build it the way you dreamed. Not what others tell you. It might cost a bit more, but you will be happy with it and proud of your build.
The most helpful things we have done are to go to as many get togethers as possible and look at everyones car in detail. Take pictures of what you like.
I would agree with this - build it the way you want to build it. I held off until I could build what I wanted the first time and have no regrets. For me it meant starting with a basic kit and throwing away the build manual.
It took two years and a few bumps in the road, but overall I'm very happy with the way it turned out.
There are different approaches to how you can build these cars. Each is different and neither is right or wrong. It depends on what you want, and what you want to spend.
One option is to do what Tirod suggests - it's a budget approach - donor parts and a rustoleum paint job. Start with the basic kit and go the donor route. You'll likely end up with cash in your pocket if you start with $35k and go this approach and will probably have a nice donor based build.
The second option is to go with the complete kit - it will be all new parts. Add in a crate engine and tranny from one of our vendors, and a decent paintjob and you will have an excellent car for $35k.
The third option is to get the basic kit, and build it with the options that you want in terms of brakes, suspension, cooling system, etc etc. You will likely end up north of $50k if you go this route.
There is nothing wrong with going with either of these options.
Best advice I can give you is to look up all the local FFR owners, and go see their cars and get a ride in them - that really helped me decide what I wanted (which admittedly changed like the wind but that's another story).
__________________
Howard
408W, IRS, TKO600, PS, PB, QF SS 750, POM Sept 2010.
FFR 6817 // Delivery Date: 11/20/08 // Roller: 9/25/09 // First Engine Start: 3/31/10 // Gokart: 4/11/10 // Painted: 7/2/10 //Graduated 10/03/10. Graduation thread with my progress links is here.
Here's some things that I did which turned out well:
1. base kit plus donor "pallet of parts". Several vendors (I used AMP) will send you a 6 x 6 x 8 ft. cube containing all the parts harvested out of a donor. more expensive than doing it yourself, but if at the beginning of the build you lack the skill, tools, or your neighborhood simply precludes you tearing down a car at your house, this works. Another reason is if donors in your area are all rusty. amount of time spent cleaning/de-surface rusting the donor parts was relatively trivial in comparison to total build effort.
2. in contrast with some of the input above, i find my heater to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. i grew up in rochester NY, and having a heater will extend your season. with my heater and heated seat on, and proper headwear and jacket, i can drive in shorts with temps in the 40s/50s, snug as a bug in a rug (have to turn the heater down to preclude frying my legs).
3. passenger roll bar. in the perhaps (?) unlikely event of an accident, my passenger deserves the same protection as me. also, if you intend on doing trackdays where you want a passenger (friend or instructor) to join you, some organizations require a passenger roll bar.
3. high back seats with side bolsters. not the classic look, and more difficult for ingress/egress, but sure are comfortable, give good body control in high g turns, and presumably safer (head/whiplash protection).
4. high school vocational school for paint: got my bodywork/paint done for materials cost.
5. cobra earl fresh air vents. cooler air on hot summer days.
6. windwings/sunvisors/better mirrors: adds comfort/utility to the cockpit
frankly, i don't see how you can get on the road for low 30s with a complete kit, crate motor/tranny/rear end, proper wheels and tires (absolutely all important determinant of available traction), taxes, license, any additional tools you might need, and the 1-2K you'll need to spend on bitsas (fluids, adhesives, fasteners, electrical and hydraulic components, insulation [e.g. dynamat/fatmat/coolmat], additional carpet for trunk, endless other items.....)
__________________
Rick
Mk IV 7329, '04 Mach 1 donor, 3 link, FFR lowers, heater, Kirkey seats w/seat heaters, dual rollbars, Kumho Ecsta XS 255/315s on 9/10.5 x 17 Halibrand replicas; , Lexus Indigo Ink Pearl/Arctic White stripes
-picked up 9/25/10
-first start 3/9/12
-go kart 3/18/12
-complete 7/24/12 http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/...0Construction/
The ugly truth is donor parts are the best value, and upgrade donor parts do more for you than expensive semi race or high end parts...
Avoid the "haute" rod couture that the "big boys" like to pressure every one on - you "must" use CNC billet, or expensive fake aircraft hose, or exotic intakes. All that stuff increases the budget exponentially - but NOT performance...
Paint is another - too much emphasis on a glowing glossy job, in reality, it's just there to keep the sheet metal from rusting. And kits are 100% composite bodies. Go figure - $8000+ for that is - bluntly - ego tripping...
Point being, in the kit world, all too many emphasize the visual, not the dynamic execution as timed on the track. That's another decision to make - is this for show, or go? And the results will be obvious for all to see.
Can't help myself... must respond...
You're right, is the car for show or for go? Or as I, like others, have mainly responded to the OP, what you want to do with the car will determine the build plan and in turn the budget.
But honestly what someone chooses to do with their build -- with new parts, donor parts, bling parts, nice paint jobs, aftermarket engine parts, or whatever -- is their choice and I simply don't understand the judgmental attitude that they're somehow making a mistake or wasting money if they don't fit into your definition of a performance car or best value. Some of us like the performance and the visual aspects, and there's nothing wrong with that.
The OP asked an honest question about how to get started and what he could expect for his budget. The forum has done the usual good job of giving him lots of ideas and a range of choices. But there are no right or wrong answers. It's his build.
Start with a build plan! This is a great way to formalize your thoughts and you can also share it for input.
Here's mine, but if you PM me your email address, I'll send you the Word document.
Your plan will change (and the more time you spend on here, the more it will change), but this is also a great place to write down notes and thoughts.
I intended to do a budget donor build and ordered a base kit. I then decided to do some upgrades and increase my budget (wifes suggestion :-)). After deciding on those, the value of a donor was less then what it would cost me. The complete kit would have also cost me more considering my upgrades.
Decide on the main things that you want and can afford. Let that list make your decision on donor, complete, or base + new parts.
If you want a new stroker engine, big brakes, new wiring, power steering, and a Moser rear, for example. Forget the donor.
If you want a 4.6, stock brakes, etc, a donor could be the best value. There are some stories on here of people buying a donor, getting all of the parts they need and selling the rest for break even or a profit.
You will get every opinion in the book pretty much on every question you ask. You will also get good advice and great ideas here.
__________________
MKIV Roadster....FFR7694
3-link Moser, Wilwood brakes, 347, TKO
What are the questions that I'm asking myself, before I buy? The various "Build" threads are where I go. What I've learned is that there is a solution to every problem. Some of the things that seem insurmountable to me are things like, "What do I do with a frame that has been incorrectly welded?" I'm not a welder, so what do I do? "What happens when I pay $3,000 to $12,000 for an engine, I install the engine, and the rear crankshaft seal is leaking, or it throws a rod when I start it up, or I'm running too rich with my carburetion and do damage to the engine?" "What happens when I put in a brand new transmission, or rear end, and they are both leaking or are defective?" Clearly there are no dealerships to pull those components out under Warranty service, and then replace them. We are the Warranty providers.
And what about component compatability? I've seen a lot of options, from carburetion/EFI, to Power Steering, to Power Brakes, to wiring harnesses. With these choices, I see a helluva lot of confusion, even amongst the old-timers. Who can I go to for the answers? So, as I get closer to pulling the trigger on a kit, I'm focusing on the solutions to any scenario. Reading this board has helped immensely. Having questions in mind for the day I attend the "Build School", are absolutely crucial. So I'm concentrating on research. I especially love posts, like with the QSL Build Thread, where the questions are not only asked, but time is taken to post the solutions.
I've done a lot of work on the cars I've owned in the past from my 1st DOHC, 4-wheel Disc brake Fiat 124 Spider, to my 1931 Model A Coupe, to my 2 Ford Pickups, to my Buick, ad infinitum.... But it's been 100% maintenance. Luckily I have "Hot Rod" friends who I can call on from time to time. So, for me, the Build School will be an absolute requirement.
Last edited by dhedges53; 10-09-2012 at 10:09 PM..
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FFR 7124
I am probably well over 1000 bucks extra because of it.
Misc Parts
Linear Mode
