Fast Freddies Power Steering - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

jewels · 10-08-2012, 07:29 PM

Just finished with the installation and first drive of the Fast Freddie Power steering conversion done.WOW
It has changed to whole handling of my MKIV. Does it change direction easier...YES,YES. Will it be easier at AutoX...YES,YES. Is the whole driving experience different, car being more responsive, seems lighter on it's "feet"...oh YES, YES. Am I in luv all over again..you bet.

So if you are on the fence about doing this conversion, in my initial experience I would say go for it.

Just to be clear on this ..I have no relationship other than a customer with FastFreddie.

CraigS · 10-08-2012, 10:55 PM

Glad it's working for you. I know how you feel even though it's been 7 years since I first added PS. For me the best part in addition to the autocross etc is how the car feels in normal driving. It feels like a normal car doesn't it..but one w/ a really big engine of course.

ajt725 · 10-08-2012, 11:40 PM

I only have limited experience with my power steering (Fast Freddie's) as I am only in the go cart stage. With that being said, it makes a huge difference for sure. My system is wired through a switch on the panel and I occasionally forget to turn it on so non powered steering is experienced untill I flip the switch. Way easier to park in my barn or maneuver at slow speeds. Now I am thinking I should have done the brakes too.

jewels · 10-09-2012, 12:21 AM

Now I am thinking I should have done the brakes too.[/QUOTE]

I did the brakes initially with the wilwood package and am very satisfied with the way it performs.
Some of my fellow members in the Upsate Cobra Club complain about there stopping with non-power brakes.

emac · 10-09-2012, 01:41 AM

Good timing on this post...as I am looking at doing this. I also have an mkIv. What rack did you go with? I read a post a while back about the possibility of not having enough threads on the upper control arm to add a lot of caster. That has always concerned me.

Any install pics? Is the pump loud?

Thanks.

Ernest

ldsman · 10-09-2012, 01:59 AM

Where can I buy fast Eddie power steering and power brakes

ajt725 · 10-09-2012, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emac

Good timing on this post...as I am looking at doing this. I also have an mkIv. What rack did you go with? I read a post a while back about the possibility of not having enough threads on the upper control arm to add a lot of caster. That has always concerned me.

Any install pics? Is the pump loud?

Thanks.

Ernest

Freddy actually recommended the Auto Zone rack. I sold my manual rack for more than what I paid for the Auto Zone rack. I cannot remember the part numbers but they are pretty easy to find on this site. My steering is not totally dialed in yet but I did order the longer upper control arm sleeves from speedway and installed them since I knew I would need them. They are not very expensive. One other part you might need is the rack extension from FFR. My kit was a complete kit and that part is only included in the base kit I guess. The pump is kind of loud but really cannot be heard when the engine is running. The only thing I did not like about the kit was the bracket that was supposed to hold the reservoir. It had a concave or semi circular mount so I have no idea where it could have been mounted. I had a billet mount made that looks and works great!

ajt725 · 10-09-2012, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldsman

Where can I buy fast Eddie power steering and power brakes

Cannot help ya with the brakes but here is where I got the pwr steering

Fast Freddie's Fabrications - Fast Freddie's EHPS Kit

ajt725 · 10-09-2012, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels

Now I am thinking I should have done the brakes too.

I did the brakes initially with the wilwood package and am very satisfied with the way it performs.
Some of my fellow members in the Upsate Cobra Club complain about there stopping with non-power brakes.

[/QUOTE]

Yep, I think the Wilwood brake upgrade is in my future

ldsman · 10-09-2012, 03:09 AM

The page didn't load

ajt725 · 10-09-2012, 03:15 AM

Thats weird, it loads when i click the link

Not sure why its not working for you.

Benji · 10-09-2012, 03:41 AM

Electronic power steering is very numb and lacks feel/feedback through the wheel, without any variable control it could be dangerous at high speed.

How does Electro-Hydraulic Power Steering compare to plain Hydraulic Power Steering in terms of feel?

edwardb · 10-09-2012, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benji

Electronic power steering is very numb and lacks feel/feedback through the wheel, without any variable control it could be dangerous at high speed.

How does Electro-Hydraulic Power Steering compare to plain Hydraulic Power Steering in terms of feel?

In theory, no difference. The only difference is the source of hydraulic pressure is from an electrically driven pump vs. an engine driven pump. The pump Freddie provides is a Denso unit originally designed for the Toyota MR2. It's not speed sensitive, as some later variations are, but it does have a valve that can be used to adjust the boost to the rack. Similar in function to a Heidts valve that many mention. All the reviews I've read say it can be adjusted to be just the right amount of boost.

I have Freddie's system on the bench ready to install in my Mk3 as a winter project. I'm going with the Breeze 3 turn Unisteer rack. Lots of rack choices. That's the one I chose.

jewels · 10-09-2012, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emac

Good timing on this post...as I am looking at doing this. I also have an mkIv. What rack did you go with? I read a post a while back about the possibility of not having enough threads on the upper control arm to add a lot of caster. That has always concerned me.

Any install pics? Is the pump loud?

Thanks.

Ernest

Hello Ernest
I used an Auto Zone #6439 rack with a 2.5:1 Ratio
The pump can be heard when the engine is not running, not too much when it is running (I have quiet pipes).

I was told that you would lose feel, not true , it seems to have the same feel of the road.

I have pictures but have a hard time loading them(I am sure it's me)..send an email to marty@yourjeweler.com and I will attach them.

CraigS · 10-09-2012, 03:11 PM

For reference here are the numbers for Autozone power racks:

#6406; 3.0 turns lock to lock
#6439; 2.5 turns lock to lock
#64163 2.25 turns lock to lock

They are all right around $100
I just swapped from the Breeze 3.0 rack to the 6439 since I autocross a lot. I have gotten used to the faster rack in the last two weeks. I run 8 deg caster which helps a bunch.

UCA longer sleaves can be gotten here.
http://www.summitracing.com/search/?...0sleaves&dds=1
Be sure to measure the diameter of the threaded ends to match as FFR has used 3/4 and 5/8 (I think) at different times.

FFR4FUN · 10-09-2012, 03:41 PM

I had planned to write to the forum in the next couple of days about the FF PS install. I installed the FF PS early this year in my 8 year old MKII and WOW is the right response to how much better the driving experience is. However, I have two issues that came up. First, I had a significant increase in bump steer, especially at speeds over 40 mph. Used the same suspension set up as on the manual rack. I will put in a bump steer kit this winter. The second issue is the noise from the pump. It's a high pitched squeal and gets louder during the steering action. I wrote on the forum just after the install but most everyone said the noise is not too bad. Well, after 3+ months and over 3K miles it still bugs me. More importantly it really bugs my wife. The squeal is loud in the car and outside it's really noticeable. As engine revs and car speed goes up the noise of the pump is less, disappears. The problem is in parking lots or the start line of the AX events . . . some one actually suggested that the belts need to be tightened. Has anyone else had this noise issue and were they able to reduce or eliminate it? I will work on it this winter, if it doesn't get better I may sell the FF PS kit and install a standard PS system . . . But I'd really rather not for all the reasons I bought the FF system in the first place.

emac · 10-09-2012, 06:53 PM

Craig,
Thanks for the part numbers. Good info.

FFR4fun,
You said you are using the same suspension setup as on the manual rack....do you mean camber specs as well? Have you contacted FF about the pump noise? A whiney pump would be a deal killer for me.

Decisions decisions......

65 Cobra Dude · 10-09-2012, 07:23 PM

FFR4FUN,

I too am concerned about the whine. I am planning under car exhaust so it may not be drowned out as much for me.

Also - when you convert to P/S, I believe you are supposed to put in the rack extenders. That will probably fix your bump steer.

Henry

Sanford · 10-09-2012, 10:09 PM

I'm using Honda power steering fluid, it helps with the noise. It doesn't foam like the regular ps fluid, look in the reservoir to see when its on.

Doug Meldrum · 10-09-2012, 10:31 PM

I guess I'm not sold. It's a 2200 lb. car and my steering is not bad. Is it really worth a $1200+ investment?
Until I am convinced, I will keep mine the way it is with manual steering and brakes and drive the wheels off of it.
Do I sound like the party poopper?

FFR4FUN · 10-10-2012, 12:18 AM

Doug, I hear what you are saying, I drove mine for 4 years with out PB and 8 years with out PS . . . you need to drive one of these with both . . . it WILL change your mind . . there simply seems to be more and better car control.
Sanford, my fluid does not seem to have too much foam, but then I'm not sure how much is too much. Why is the Honda fluid better, is it thicker, or have special additives? I'll probably try this before I do anything else.
Cobra Dude, I think it depends on the rack you use, I have the AutoZone rack 2.25 LTL as recommended by FF.
emac, yes, caster, camber, toe etc. are the same, some suggest moving the caster, my tech said he strongly would not recommend that, and I trust him, he's done lot's of race and normal car set ups. I have talked to FF and in fact he sent me a second pump, good guy, unfortunately not any noise reduction.

CraigS · 10-10-2012, 12:41 AM

FFR4fun- I can't help w/ the noise but have a few thoughts otherwise. You mention caster is the same as before-not good, as caster can go up a bunch w/ PS. See my post above about longer sleaves needed. I am running 8 deg caster and am very happy w/ that. Also, caster can help w/ bumpsteer. Backround: to reduce bumpsteer usually the rack needs to move downward and the tierod end needs to move upward. Offset rack bushings move the rack. Increased caster tilts the top of the spindle rearward, which moves the tierod end upward. So think about caster (you didn't mention an actual spec for your car so I am guessing here) before you do anything else.
Re: Honda PS fluid. I used to get stiff steering toward the end of an autocross run. hotter weather made it worse. I read here about the honda PS fluid and got some. It was an immediate improvement. I did later install a PS cooler but the honda fluid very definately helped. i don't know why, and I don't know if it will help your noise but it's a $25 gamble. BTW, get the fluid at a dealer so you know you have the real deal. HTH

Sanford · 10-10-2012, 12:59 AM

I should clarify, it had a lot of bubbles in the reservoir and the honda fluid is less prone to do so.

FFR4FUN · 10-10-2012, 01:29 AM

Craig S and Sanford, thanks for your input and clarification. Aren't these beasts fun to TRY and tame and drive and race and . . . . .

J Persons · 10-10-2012, 12:29 PM

To address the pump noise issue, could the pump be insulated? If it doesn't get too hot, a container could be built around the pump with about 1½" of fiberglass insulation, you could also mount the pump with rubber isolators to cut down on any noise that could be transmitted to the chassis.
I mounted my Aeromotive fuel pump using rubber isolators and it made a considerable difference in the pump noise.

HIRISC · 10-10-2012, 12:46 PM

Absent of under-car exhaust, I don't think one could hear the power steering pump over the engine/exhaust.

Re insulating it, maybe, but placement (at least on a MK4 and in the traditional spot on the 'X' member) is already a bit of a challenge.

I'm sure someone smart could/will come up with a pump/install location that allows for more creative noise abatement techniques.

My location:

CraigS · 10-10-2012, 12:46 PM

J- good idea on the rubber mounts. Not sure if containing it in a housing would be good due to heat buildup. I did a search at Summit for "rubber mounts" and tons of results showed up. This is one
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8800/
These may not be strong enough but give an idea.

HIRISC · 10-10-2012, 12:55 PM

FYI - The two mounting bolts supplied with the kit and that affix the pump to the included mounting plate pass through rubber 'bushings', ie they are rubber mounted already.

emac · 10-10-2012, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFR4FUN

emac, yes, caster, camber, toe etc. are the same, some suggest moving the caster, my tech said he strongly would not recommend that, and I trust him, he's done lot's of race and normal car set ups. I have talked to FF and in fact he sent me a second pump, good guy, unfortunately not any noise reduction.

According to the MKIV manual: the alignment specs for a manual rack are 3 degrees caster and for a PS rack 7 degrees caster. I think you need to inform your tech. I have no idea why he wouldn't want it changed when you changed from manual to PS?