2013 Budget Planning: FULL front brake upgrade & steering advice needed

[NiceGuyEddie]

Hi dudes, let's do it all again, but for my front brakes. Current setup is:

• '90 GT Brakes
• '90 GT lower control arms
• '90 GT spindles
• Max rim size 9.5" (?) with 275/40 R17
• MK3 upper control arms
• Breeze Power Rack
• Lowered, offset performance bushings
• Fortes Bumpsteer Kit (bolt-in)

Although my bolt-in Fortes Bumpsteer ends have greatly helped the car, I still get some heavy tracking when hitting funny spots on the freeways, so I'd like to upgrade the whole front end. Not 100% sure if SAI will get rid of that, or even exactly how it works, but i want to do the whole thing at once.

The full plan is: Wilwood Brakes, SAI mod, and sway bar.

Here is the package, I think. I think the SAI mod means changing the the upper bracket of sorts. I'll edit this list as you guys chime in.

edited:

• $1800 - Wilwood Brakes, Levy Racing
• $250 - FFR tubular control arms, used okay
• $250 - SN95 spindles
• $299 - Whitby's Full SAI kit
• $180 - Fortes Sway Bar
• ??? - Rubber Grease boot replacements
• $150 - hardware, re-alignment, etc.

[B]~$3000/B] - TOTAL

Questions:

• Where in the world do you get the lugs? The Wilwood brake rotors don't have lugnuts.
• What's the difference between the Wilwoods from Levy Racing and the ones from Factory Five?
• What does SAI stand for.

Cheers,

[NiceGuyEddie]

EDIT: I think I answered my own question about the lugs. (EDIT: was "lugnuts", thanks Tim.) the gear-looking thing is for the ABS, but i just ignore it, right?

Factory Five SKU:# 14507

[Bigtim01]

Yes that gear looking ring is for the ABS system (just ignore). Lug nuts are supplied with the wheels you purchase.
HTH
Tim

[rich grsc]

Why would you pay $700 for spindles? You can buy them all day long from the salvage yard for $200-250. The dont wear out so why pay that? If you dont want to spend an hour or two cleaning and painting 'donor' ones, send me $600 and I'll do it.

[Gordon Levy]

I have to agree, just get a set of SN95 spindles from the wrecking yard.

[Gordon Levy]

My Wilwoods are 40% larger

[5.8Cobra]

I would watch ebay for the spindles, grab two new hubs if they need it otherwise just run em. You'll need the full SAI kit since you have a MK3 which is $299 from Whitbys. If youre not dead set on Wilwoods, you can get a set of 94 up Cobra brakes or even Brembos at a good price and still have a 13" rotor. You'll have to figure out what master to run if youre not power. Give your upper control arms a good once-over to make sure theyre still in good shape. You'll probably rip the boots getting your old spindle adapters and lower arms off so think about some replacement boots. That should do it and stay under budget.

Mike

[NiceGuyEddie]

Dead set on Wilwoods, to match my rear Levy Racing's Wilwoods.

i now see the kit on Whitby's site, it has a bracket to lower & re-use my upper control arm.

since i'm totaling it up as accurately as possible, do i need to budget NAPA machine shop for new bushings or attaching the spindes to the control arms? i replaced the bushings on my donor stuff, they charged me $50 for machine shop work.

[5.8Cobra]

The spindles should just bolt onto your lower control arms. You may need to run a spacer under the castle nut to make the cotter pin line up with the hole but otherwise I dont know of any bushings that would be associated with the spindles. Lots of new ball joints come with stover nuts (self locking) so the cotter pin isnt even used. Do you have a ball joint separator? It will help when removing the spindle adapters and lower control arms from the spindles.

Mike

[NiceGuyEddie]

i finally found a good picture. my upper control arms are the gold ones and they don't look like that. do i need to buy new ones?

[CraigS]

No your gold UCAs will be fine. An overview:
Initially you will be removing everything except the upper control arm. So you will need a pickle fork to seperate the upper balljoint from the spindle. Like this one;
16" Tie Rod Separator
This will usually destroy the rubber boot so be sure to order a spare boot. At this point you have just the UCA there, so you can install the UCA mounting pieces that come w/ the SAI mod and move the UCA to it's new position. I would then install the new FFR LCA and connect it to the bottom of the coilover. Then install the SAI adapter pieces to the spindles while they are on the workbench. If you have a big vise to clamp them in you can toque the big bolts or you can torque them after the spindle is attached to both control arms.I would also trial fit the calipers to the spindles as there may be a tight fit which may mean you need to put the big bolts on in the other direction. Be sure to get familiar w/ the spindles and the SAI adapters since both have a left and a right version. Think through the whole procedure before you attach the spindle to the control arms cause if you need to remove it, you will ruin your new balljoint boots.
SAI=steering axis inclination. this is a line drawn thru the upper and lower balljoints looked at from a front view. Similiar to caster is the same line but looked at from a side view. The end result of the SAI mod is that the entire UCA and upper balljoint is moved outward. It will actually be sitting inside your wheel.
I would talk to Gordon about the front brakes. Maybe you don't want his largest setup. Talk about getting proper front to rear balance w/ the master cylinder you just installed. Since you don't have dual master cylinders w/ a balance bar, matching the calipers is critical.

[NiceGuyEddie]

okay so far so good, guys. i edited my list, and i will budget ~$3000 for the whole thing.

Shirley, i will call Gordon when the time comes to order my brakes.

he has big sales of ~$500 off occasionally, prices usually extended from Wilwood. maybe i'll pick the main brake parts up earlier if that happens. his post was easy to find:

Special pricing on Wilwood front brake kits

i know he also sells a rippin' bumpsteer kit, bitchin' coilovers, and a great swaybar, but the Forte's one is probably just fine for me.

.

[h82crash]

Do not use a pickle fork to separate your ball joints, you will destroy them. You won't need to separate the upper ball joint if you have FFR spindle adapters. Just unbolt the adapter from the old spindle and bolt the new spindle on. Unless you have the older 2-hole adapters, then you'll have to change those too. Anyway, to separate the ball joint, put the castle nut on upside down so its flush with the stud and use a 2 lb sledge to whack it off. You need to hit it very straight, so everything needs to be apart so you can get a straight shot at it. My lowers came out on the first blow and no damage to the ball joint. For the uppers, I took the UCAs off the car and did this on the bench. Had to use a 1/2" drift to get to the ball joint stud but a couple of whacks and they were off. But you'll only have to do the uppers of you need to change the adapters.

As far as having to separate the lower ball joint, you're getting new LCA's, just put new ball joints in them.

[CraigS]

Eddie is planning to do the SAI mod so will need to seperate the UCA balljoint from the adapter to be able to install it in the SAI adapter. Your idea for seperating the balljoint may work but my experience has been that usually they are very tight and so may end up messing up the nut. Here is another pickle fork that has three different fork sizes which may be helpful.
Craftsman 5 pc. Pickle Fork Kit - Tools - Mechanics & Auto Tools - Automotive Specialty Tools
I have also seperated them by soaking w/ penetrating oil and smacking the spindle near the balljoint w/ a 4# sledge. The vibration loosens the taper.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Tom: i have the four hole brackets from an early MK3, but are you saying i also need to buy new spindle adapter brackets? i thought the complete kit from Whitby's includes a part that replaces that.

everything in the photos are black, so it's hard to tell.



what am i looking at here? it seems to be the '95 spindle, and part from Whitby's only.

[KEITH T.]

Originally Posted by NiceGuyEddie

EDIT: I think I answered my own question about the lugs. (EDIT: was "lugnuts", thanks Tim.) the gear-looking thing is for the ABS, but i just ignore it, right?

Factory Five SKU:# 14507

Eddie take a good chisel and big hammer and smack the gear for the ABS, wright on the teeth as if the chisel were a set of gears meshing together. You might have to rotate it 90* and hit it again it will split in two pieces. NO more ugly gear to look at.

[JoeE]

Originally Posted by NiceGuyEddie

Although my bolt-in Fortes Bumpsteer ends have greatly helped the car, I still get some heavy tracking when hitting funny spots on the freeways, so I'd like to upgrade the whole front end. Not 100% sure if SAI will get rid of that, or even exactly how it works, but i want to do the whole thing at once.

Eddie

First I have most of what you are doing and I have found that uneven road taking over the steering is just part of the driving experience. It seems to be more pronounced when I am driving with my 275 R1's up front instead of my 245 Sumis.

SAI kit worth the investment. Get SN95 spindles from '94/95 only, they are all technically referred to as SN95 all the way up to 2001 BUT, the 94/95 have a narrower track therefore allowing a wider tire to fit up front.



Just throwing a sway bar on without taking all of the handling characteristics of the car into account may not prove to be as beneficial as you might think. Namely what are you trying to accomplish with it? Do you have severe understeer or oversteer ?

[Jack Wojack]

Eddie, get yourself the Wilwood pedals so you can tune the brake system by using the proper size master cylinders to match your brake calipers...I would think Gordon can hook you up with the proper components.

You said your rear brakes are from Gordon, I would Highly Recommend you get the rest of the brake system from him as well. As you are finding out all the individual components have to work together in order for the system to function properly.

Jack

[h82crash]

Eddie, what Craig said, forgot you were going to the SAI mod.

As far as pickle forks, I've done this a few times and almost never had success with the fork tool. And for messing up the nut, its a fair chance to dork it up if you don't hit it straight. But a straight, good, blow and it should pop the first hit. I got this advice from a long time mustang enthusiast/dismantler and it works for me.

[NiceGuyEddie]

okay dudes! it looks like i now have all the info i wanted in one place, and i got the magic number of about $3000. (and Nitto NT-05's have already been budgeted for 2013.)

Jeff K: i am just a beginner driver, and i have crummy Sumimotos, so my oversteer/understeer was directly related to the PSI i had when experimenting at autocross. it was amazing how ±1 psi would change oversteer to understeer (same psi on all fours) but that's another subject.

i suppose the swaybar can be added later without having to pay for alignment again. i am absolutely positive that Gordon's 5-link upgrade keeps the rear of the car level when turning hard, and the overall car more level when turning hard.

but i am assuming a sway bar will help front body roll like this? but for all i know, this is totally normal.



i am 100% guilty if i think i need a sway bar because they sell sway bars. Gordon said they are not really needed if you have stiff springs, and in fact, with a sway bar, you are losing part of the independent suspension on the front of the car. but for the $180 or so that Mike Forte sells them for, i'd love to have one just for the fun of installing it.

[rich grsc]

Originally Posted by KEITH T.

Eddie take a good chisel and big hammer and smack the gear for the ABS, wright on the teeth as if the chisel were a set of gears meshing together. You might have to rotate it 90* and hit it again it will split in two pieces. NO more ugly gear to look at.

NO NO NO, just leave them on, you may want to run ABS in the future.

[JKleiner]

Originally Posted by NiceGuyEddie

Jeff K: i am just a beginner driver, and i have crummy Sumimotos, so my oversteer/understeer was directly related to the PSI i had when experimenting at autocross. it was amazing how ±1 psi would change oversteer to understeer (same psi on all fours) but that's another subject...

...i am 100% guilty if i think i need a sway bar because they sell sway bars. Gordon said they are not really needed if you have stiff springs, and in fact, with a sway bar, you are losing part of the independent suspension on the front of the car. but for the $180 or so that Mike Forte sells them for, i'd love to have one just for the fun of installing it.

The fact that you can change from over to understeer with a small adjustment to tire pressure indicates that the car is reasonably well balanced as is, at least for your driving style. If you install a bar to stiffen up the front without making a similar change to the rear roll stiffness I believe you'll discover that the car will not be as well balanced and will want to push (understeer). If you get very far out of balance front to rear you won't be able to bring it back with tire pressure.

Jeff

[CraigS]

Don't worry about a swaybar for now. But...keep it in mind for later as things will change w/ new good tires. Oh, and Forte is the place to go for a front bar. BTW, I am glad you are now thinking about your next upgrades. There was a post somewhere recently involving some leaks that I was afraid you were going to chuck the whole thing. good to have you back! As you have figured out these cars are not perfect at first but can be made perfect. It just depends on attitude. I wish I could afford everything I would like to do all at once this winter but I can't. So I do what I can, when I can, and enjoy the heck out of it along the way. I got my MkI in 05 and my current mkII in 07 and am on this forum every day and am having the time of my life.

[Cobradavid]

Eddie,

Take the money you previously-budgeted for a front anti-sway bar and spend it on an alignment tool (like the Fastrack tool) and never pay for another alignment again!

Don't you just love when people tell you how to spend your money?

David

[chmasy]

Eddy, if you go with the Jyard 94 95 spindles, the easiest way to get rid of all the rust is to
use the Electrolytic Rust Removal Method, The rust just falls off, I just did this on a pair of spindles and I could not believe how easy it was.


Model A Ford Garage ~ Carbon Anode Electrolytic Rust Removal Method

[Nate]

There have been some folks who needed longer upper control arm tubes for the SAI mod. Speedway motors has them and there are several threads about it on the forum. Good luck!

[G-Pete]

Used SN 95 spindles $213.99
New SVT Calibers, Pads and Rotors front and rear (NAPA) $471.06
Bumpsteer kit $127.87
Swaybar (anti-roll bar) $295.97

$1108.89 total....

[NiceGuyEddie]

As it turns out… the spirit of Paul Mastroianni a.k.a. Cannonball Cobra has some spindles for me in JJ'Snakepit's garage! (they collected them on junkyard visits.) Will my rotors, bearings, and calipers fit on the SN95 spindles? If so, I can just get the Whitby's SAI Kit, used control arms, and do the SAI mod only… and not even have to get re-aligmnent when I get the Wilwood Brakes.
just an idea.

[trevor]

I have this, and it works really well:

levy wilwoods, 6 piston
sai kit
vpm sway bar
fortes tubular lowers
junkyard SN95 spindles
breeze drop steering rack bushings and shorter tie rod ends
gold pole position upper A arms (came with kit in 2001)
KRC racing power steering pump
AGR rack and pinion
13" sparco wheel

[CraigS]

No, your rotors,bearings and calipers will not fit the sn95 spindles. that is why i still have fox stuff. To go sn95 everything between the balljoints needs to be changed and if you just change to sn95 brakes you don't pick up much performance advantage vs fox brakes. Since you are planning Wilwood brakes, you will gain performance.