Is the new forged pedal strong enough? Or do I need to pony up the cash now for hydraulic? I was under the impression that the new pedal style was the fix.
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MKIV Roadster....FFR7694
3-link Moser, Wilwood brakes, 347, TKO
So, I've been reading these posts and is it my understanding that FFR is re-engineering their clutch set-up or keeping it the same with the newer forged Wilwood pedals?
If not, then the real answer to using the mechanical cable system is to acquire a donor Mustang pedal set up. I've read here, that those who have it swear by them. You mount the entire Mustange pedal set up in place of the Wilwood system. The cable comes out from the opposite side of the footbox and works as Ford designed it for the Mustang. The only change, I believe you must make, is the bending of the pedals and that is done with a tool called the pedal bender that is sent from builder to builder. I guess you have to get on a waiting list to use it.
I talked with FF Friday and I think their solution is going to be some type of brace or bracket on pedal. Starting to install hydraulic setup today.
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MKIII, Carlquist Comp Engine 347, 480hp, Boss Block, Z Heads, TKO600, Quicktime, spec stage II, IRS, Wilwood 6PS, 4PS brakes, Eibach springs, Forte IRS Adjusters, Eagle F1, 2x rollbar, many personal touches. Delivered April 09'. Graduated July 2010...........
Installed kit from Mike at Forte this past weekend to include a 3/4" slave cylinder and 3/4" Wilwood MC which is identical to the units that came with the original kit. Only piece that required extra attention was to space the slave cylinder bracket back 2" vs. the 3/4" that the kit suggests and trim the pushrod down to fit. This is probably due to how I have the ball stud set in the quicktime bellhousing. Did a lot of bench racing prior to installation and the MC and slave cylinder have exactly the same travel at 1 1/4". Measured from the point that the heim joint attaches to the clutch fork, it only takes 5/8" travel to disengage the clutch. I have 1" travel at the MC when everything is installed in the car. In theory, there will be no issues with the pedal travel and clutch disengagement. Hardest part of the entire install to this point has been locating the 7/16x20 Banjo fitting to 3/8 hose that goes on the MC and connects to the remote reservoir. Once again Olli came through and is shipping me a new reservoir kit with the correct fitting.
Hope to have the remote reservoir mounted and plumbed by weeks end and the car back on road Sunday, weather permitting.
Although one hole on pedal box (closest to outside of car) was worn a bit due to sideloading of pedal, I was able to install bushings in both holes (same bushings they use on door hinges) and pedal and use a grade 8, 3/8" solid rod to keep clutch pedal in pedal box. Great fix as all slop removed, any future wear will be easily repaired by changing bushings and I did not see any easy way to get the pedal box assembly out of the car. The conversion kit sold by forte's is high quality with heavy CNC machined aluminum brackets used. The only thing I would like to see added is a snap ring installed at the end of the slave cylinder bore that would prevent the piston from existing the cylinder if ever over extended, In theory, this is not possible with the slave cylinder and the MC having the same bore and stroke but it would offer piece of mind. I did fabricate a stop by using the hole in the bellhousing that the clutch cable passed through and adjusting it so the clutch fork has a full 1 1/4" travel before bottoming out on the stop. The stop is a grade 8, 1/2" bolt approximately 6" long with a nut on each side of bell housing that allows easy adjustment.
Looking forward to moving the theory to practical use sometime this weekend.
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MKIII, Carlquist Comp Engine 347, 480hp, Boss Block, Z Heads, TKO600, Quicktime, spec stage II, IRS, Wilwood 6PS, 4PS brakes, Eibach springs, Forte IRS Adjusters, Eagle F1, 2x rollbar, many personal touches. Delivered April 09'. Graduated July 2010...........
Changing to a hydraulic clutch isn't necessary. What is necessary is to change the 2" offset mounting of the linkage to the pedal - the load is imparted in a way that twists the pedal lever.
Installation of the hydraulic clutch is different and doesn't do that. Being hydraulic is something else again. This has been a bit glossed over in the past - lots of recommendations to pay money and install hydraulic, little examination of the actual cause.
The simple preventative cure is don't install offset linkage to the pedal. Forum suppliers sell the correct linkage, too, which is a lot less expensive. The clutch can still be operated by cable, and the side load on the pedal corrected.
I sell a lot of hydraulic clutch cylinders to repair OEM setups, I've yet to sell a cable or quadrant. In my opinion and experience, mechanical linkage has a much longer life and needs little maintenance; cylinders, not so much. The parts available on the shelf tell me a lot - dozens of cylinders waiting to sell, not one clutch cable. Corporate accountants know where to place their bets.
If anyone is at the point in their build who can affect a change, now is the time to do it. Much easier than waiting.
Tirod,
Could you come up with some vendors? I'm at the stage to complete the pedals and want to stick to a cable.
Could you come up with some vendors? I'm at the stage to complete the pedals and want to stick to a cable.
Thanks
John
Us!
Steve
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system installed and bled. works great on jack stands. Pedal effort significantly reduced and plenty of pedal travel to disengaged clutch with no modifications to 3/4 tube behind pedal.
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MKIII, Carlquist Comp Engine 347, 480hp, Boss Block, Z Heads, TKO600, Quicktime, spec stage II, IRS, Wilwood 6PS, 4PS brakes, Eibach springs, Forte IRS Adjusters, Eagle F1, 2x rollbar, many personal touches. Delivered April 09'. Graduated July 2010...........
Has anyone considered welding up the thin top part on the Wilwood pedal?
I'm not a specialist but i imagine if this part would have the same thicknes as the lower part, breaking pedals could belong to the past.
Put about 70 miles on car yesterday. New system works great. Takes a little getting used to the significantly reduced pedal effort.
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MKIII, Carlquist Comp Engine 347, 480hp, Boss Block, Z Heads, TKO600, Quicktime, spec stage II, IRS, Wilwood 6PS, 4PS brakes, Eibach springs, Forte IRS Adjusters, Eagle F1, 2x rollbar, many personal touches. Delivered April 09'. Graduated July 2010...........
Thanks for the updates Dually... I'm getting ready to install the exact same thing from Fortes! Can't wait!
And yes GWL.., if you must use a cable clutch, don't use the peddle assembly from Factory Five. The Wilwoods that come with FF's kit are designed for a hydraulic clutch system, which when use correctly, "hydraulic", are excellent!! Cables work too, when used correctly, like the mustang peddles. In a finished car with the Wilwood peddles, your best chioce is hydraulic. Its one of those things that I "should have done" but did'nt. It would have been simple when the body was off.
I'm following unanswered questions also.
I have the cast Wilwood pedals with cable. MK3.1 complete.
Over 6000 miles. Mostly normal street use but occassionally get to stand on it at the track. The FFR supplied cable did let go early on but quickly replaced it with Ford cable. I think pedal pressure is what I expected for manual cable.
I opened up the access panel into the top of the foot box last weekend and see nothing that shows stress or cracking or wear on the clutch pedal or quadrant. I am considering M Fortes fork extension if it can reduce foot pressure and stress on the pedal.
So if I may I will echo the questions too.
Is FFR designing a support bracket? If so, ETA?
Has anyone ever broken a forged Wilwood pedal?
Thanks All, Cheers.
A
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"He who made kittens .....put SNAKES in the grass." (Jethro Tull)
"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not." (Dr. Seuss)
I'll try to answer what I can. I called Factory Five last week to discuss the clutch pedal breaking. I was told they are designing a reinforcement and will be sending it to all owners at no charge. When I asked for details on the reinforcement he said "to be announced". He also said it was for the cast and forged pedals. Jesper is working this fix and it is already approved. They just need to make the parts and send them out. I guessed a couple of months and he agreed.
I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I haven't read any threads about the forged pedals breaking. I called Willwood to get a part number for the improved pedals. During that conversation he said the forged pedals are significantly stronger than the cast ones.
If you are going to stay with the cable system the clutch fork extender from Mike Forte is a good idea. Not only does it take some pressure off the pedal and cable it also removes it from your leg. I have it and am happy with the results.
Jeff
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Mark III complete kit ordered 12/03/2007, received #6351 1/22/2008 Homemade mods: driver footbox extension with deadpedal and dimmer switch, widened passenger footbox, brake reservoir mounting bracket, under trunk storage box, custom dash and dash extension, heater forward box, custom glove box, under dash switch panel, Explorer motor carb conversion, first start 7/10/2010, paint by Performance Automotive 11/20/2010-5/7/2011, Graduated 11/22/2011
Thanks for that!!! I was going to call FFR, but you beat me to it. I am glad that they are on it. I didn't particularly want to go hydraulic. I have been thinking waaaay too much about this. The combination of forged and a support will put my mind at ease. ANd save me a few hundred $$$ that I can blow on something shiney.
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MKIV Roadster....FFR7694
3-link Moser, Wilwood brakes, 347, TKO
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"He who made kittens .....put SNAKES in the grass." (Jethro Tull)
"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not." (Dr. Seuss)
Hope the fix they are engineering eliminates the wear on the holes that the mount pin goes thru. The hole on the left side was out of round only after 8000 miles, at the point my pedal broke. As noted in this thread the fix was to install a smaller diameter pin 3/8" and install bushing in the holes. Those running heavy duty clutches may experience quicker wear and the forged pedal may not help. I can't see how this will be eliminated unless the side load caused by current setup is removed.
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MKIII, Carlquist Comp Engine 347, 480hp, Boss Block, Z Heads, TKO600, Quicktime, spec stage II, IRS, Wilwood 6PS, 4PS brakes, Eibach springs, Forte IRS Adjusters, Eagle F1, 2x rollbar, many personal touches. Delivered April 09'. Graduated July 2010...........
Well, add another clutch pedal to the list. Less than 900 miles, and luckily I was only a couple of miles from home. I’m just glad it didn’t happen when I was getting ready to leave a traffic light, with a car in front of me. I spoke w/ F-5 yesterday, and they are sending out a new “forged” pedal and the “repair” kit when ready. They indicated that it would be towards the end of the month before they go out. Fortunately for me, I spent a lot of time reading this forum during my build. It did cost me some extra money, but it’s also where I found the idea about making the inside panel above the drivers side footbox removable. Otherwise, I’m sure I would have to remove the body to make this repair. Hopefully, I can get everything back together without having to take it off.
Well, add another clutch pedal to the list. Less than 900 miles, and luckily I was only a couple of miles from home. I’m just glad it didn’t happen when I was getting ready to leave a traffic light, with a car in front of me. I spoke w/ F-5 yesterday, and they are sending out a new “forged” pedal and the “repair” kit when ready. They indicated that it would be towards the end of the month before they go out. Fortunately for me, I spent a lot of time reading this forum during my build. It did cost me some extra money, but it’s also where I found the idea about making the inside panel above the drivers side footbox removable. Otherwise, I’m sure I would have to remove the body to make this repair. Hopefully, I can get everything back together without having to take it off.
I'm sorry to hear about your pedal breaking. What clutch are you using?
Jeff
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Mark III complete kit ordered 12/03/2007, received #6351 1/22/2008 Homemade mods: driver footbox extension with deadpedal and dimmer switch, widened passenger footbox, brake reservoir mounting bracket, under trunk storage box, custom dash and dash extension, heater forward box, custom glove box, under dash switch panel, Explorer motor carb conversion, first start 7/10/2010, paint by Performance Automotive 11/20/2010-5/7/2011, Graduated 11/22/2011
Dave, this is the first time I read this thread. Glad to see you are back on the road. Hydraulic clutches are a great setup. I have the Wilwood MC and a modified stock pedal box. Hydraulic clutch is a must especially when my wife has driven the car and taken it to work.
-Steve
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427 FE w/ alum. intake and heads, 8.8 with 3:55s, Graduated 12/29/06, 2008 FFR Open House Best in Show Roadster
"There is no replacement for displacement"
I'm sorry to hear about your pedal breaking. What clutch are you using?
Jeff
Jeff, I have a Fidanza 2.1 Carbon/Kevlar clutch, and a T-5 I got thru Breeze. It's not heavy on the foot at all. The way the pedal broke, you could see that there was twisting.
Ken
...I just finished bleeding the new Fortes hydraulic clutch setup and it works perfect!!! I'm so pumped that the end of this repair is almost over!! Just have to bleed my brakes and she's all done. Oh, I also changed out my leaky plastic Wilwood brake reseviors and went with the CNC reseviors! No more clutch quadrant worries anymore!!! Thanks to the forum guys here and thanks to Mike Forte!
Just got back from a 50 mile cruise, and I love the new hydraulic clutch! So much smoother and easlier than my old cable. It's great to know now that my clutch is "right" , and no more worrying about when my quadrant would break or fail and leave me stranded on the side of the road! She's all cleaned up and ready to ride, and now I have nothing but confidence in my new clutch system
I've been told Factory Five will begin shipping the clutch pedal fix this week.
Jeff
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Mark III complete kit ordered 12/03/2007, received #6351 1/22/2008 Homemade mods: driver footbox extension with deadpedal and dimmer switch, widened passenger footbox, brake reservoir mounting bracket, under trunk storage box, custom dash and dash extension, heater forward box, custom glove box, under dash switch panel, Explorer motor carb conversion, first start 7/10/2010, paint by Performance Automotive 11/20/2010-5/7/2011, Graduated 11/22/2011
I've been told Factory Five will begin shipping the clutch pedal fix this week.
Thanks for the update Jeff.
Shouldn't this be flagged as a sticky? My thought is this seems like a very serious issue and it affects 100's of cars out there. Now that FFR has come up with a resolution, seems like the next natural form of communication is sticky notices, etc.
..after just switching to a hydraulic system, I think the "best" fix is to convert to hydraulic! No way will that quadrant design ever work correctly, and switching the entire peddle box with the body on is impossible! Doing the hydraulic switch over was hard, damn hard, but way easier than Removing the body. I can't imagine a simple "fix it" bracket, it's hard just getting your hands in there to work! I'm curious to see this FF fix!
Hydraulic clutch! 300 miles now in getting used to the peddle pressure difference now. I bet I don't push my peddle more than 2" to release the clutch with very light peddle effort compared to before. Thanks again to Mike Forte for the parts.
Hydraulic clutch! 300 miles now in getting used to the peddle pressure difference now. I bet I don't push my peddle more than 2" to release the clutch with very light peddle effort compared to before. Thanks again to Mike Forte for the parts.
Robert,
What sized master and slave cylinders do you have? What pressure plate?
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Shouldn't this be flagged as a sticky? My thought is this seems like a very serious issue and it affects 100's of cars out there. Now that FFR has come up with a resolution, seems like the next natural form of communication is sticky notices, etc.
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