The time has come. After enjoying most of the summer with the car in gel-coat (4500 miles) I am finally going to start the bodywork in preparation for the car to go in for paint. I am starting with the driver's door as this is the area that needs the most work. As with most Mark 4s I have seen I will be building up the front fender at the top of the door and the lower front side of the door itself.
I want to be sure I am approaching this right so I am looking for input and comment on my proposed approach.
1) Degrease the body (I Have Dupont degreaser)
2) Clean the area with Comet
3) Rinse completely and let dry
Now is where I am a bit unsure
4) rough all areas to be filled with 120? grit paper and clean
5) mix filler (Rage Gold) and apply (what thickness should each coat be?)
6) sand and continue to build up as necessary
7) final sand with ?? ( my body man will do a final sand of all areas before paint)
Have I got this right?
Thanks
__________________
Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
.
Sounds like bodywork is quite foreign to you. My suggestion to people new to bodywork is... If you have a hard time patching cracks and holes in drywall then you are going to have a frustrating time getting one of these bodies straight. Give it a go and hope you are proficient at it.
Often you will feel you are taking off more filler than you applied. Just part of the learning process.
You have the procedures right.
__________________
Click on to --- COMPETITIONCOBRA --- user name to view build progress in ALBUMS gallery.
For the most part your steps are correct. I won't lie, bodywork was extremely painful but also the most rewarding part of the build for me. The single thread that helped me the most was this one:
Prior to putting any sandpaper to the car make sure that you have the right tools. Find a good set of flexible sanding blocks in various sizes. These sanding blocks will become your best friends.
Any area that you are applying filler I would hit with 80 grit rather than the stated 120 to give the filler a better bite. Anything approaching 1/4" of filler is too much in my opinion and should be filled with 3M HSRF first. As far as how much to put on... just enough to make it flush. Any excess that you put on will end up on the garage floor after a lot of labor.
Some VERY handy tricks I learned from others on the forum:
1- Use hacksaw blade to help shape the filler on the front and rear wheel well arches where the seams were. Much less sanding if done right.
2- NEVER sand on a car without the use of a sanding block. Causes more damage in the long run.
3- Always sand in an x pattern.
4- Always use the longest sanding block possible in the areas you are working. Makes the body much straighter.
5- Use sandpaper on a pool noodle to sand compound radius's like where the nose meets the headlights.
6- When it comes time to set your gaps use a 3/16" paint stick with 80 grit sandpaper on one side. Run this along the perimeter of every edge and you will get the gap spot on. (make sure all panels are flush first!)
7- When you finally get to the primer stage 3M guide coat rocks! It shows you every mistake you made along the way.
In the end, doing bodywork gave me an appreciation for excellent bodywork. It has given me a very different perspective.
Only thing I'll add to the general overview you posted is to change your step #4 to: Knock down all parting lines then block the entire body with 120 or 150. This will begin to show the high and low spots.
.
Sounds like bodywork is quite foreign to you. My suggestion to people new to bodywork is... If you have a hard time patching cracks and holes in drywall then you are going to have a frustrating time getting one of these bodies straight. Give it a go and hope you are proficient at it.
Often you will feel you are taking off more filler than you applied. Just part of the learning process.
You have the procedures right.
The good news is that I have done a fair amount of drywall and over the years have learned how not to apply too much and spend hours sanding. I have laid in a stock of pool noodles of various sizes I have sanding blocks. My plan was to only do what was necessary with the body on the car. Once I have the panels aligned and the gaps set I will take the body off onto the buck and do all of the parting lines, wheel welss etc. and at the same time do the undercoating. I like the hacksaw blade idea. Making furniture I always use cabinet scrapers and the hacksaw blade seems to me to be the same principle.
As usual the responses here have been great and I always know where to turn to.
__________________
Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
I don't have any real body work skill but I noticed that you live in Ontario. So I would think that one thing to be carefull of is allowable temperature ranges of the various fillers you will be using. good luck and don't forget pics as you progress.
__________________
FFR 5353K,351/400hp,TKO 500, 3-link w/3.08 and Truetrac, Koni DA coilovers front and rear,APE hardtop,Forte front and VPM rear swaybars
3.Walk away when it becomes frustrating or too boring, or you get really tired of blocking, putting on more material, blocking, putting on more material…..
__________________ "May you be in heaven a full half hour before the Devil knows you're dead".
I don't have any real body work skill but I noticed that you live in Ontario. So I would think that one thing to be carefull of is allowable temperature ranges of the various fillers you will be using. good luck and don't forget pics as you progress.
For sure... Make sure you turn up the furnace in the IGLOO garage. Its dam could up here in Canada this time of the year.
__________________
Click on to --- COMPETITIONCOBRA --- user name to view build progress in ALBUMS gallery.
Last edited by COMPETITIONCOBRA; 08-22-2012 at 04:06 AM..
You mentioned something about cleaning the "area". Just in case I got it right, you should clean the entire body repeatedly. Comet and Scotchbrite pads work well. Also use Preps All. You are better off doing it once too often than once not enough.
My favorite tip to bodyworkers (I came up with this myself): When doing the fender tops, slather on the filler then use the dull side of a hacksaw blade to act as a screed along the length of the fender. The hacksaw blade bends nicely to fit the curve if you hold it at the ends. You might have to do two or three passes (letting filler dry in between and scuff up before reapplication).
On my car after cleaning the gelcoat thoroughly, I ground out the seam and aligned the doors, trunk and hood as much as possible. Then I quickly blocked the whole car with the longest board or durablock sanding block that was practical. I made no effort to sand areas that the sanding blocks bridged over. This revealed the major low and high areas immediately and areas where the doors, hood and trunk didn't quite flush out. I made a reference sketch of the body noting where all the low areas showed up. Then I scuff sanded the low areas the blocking missed and skimmed them with a layer of filler. Then I began blocking everything in earnest, adding additional layers of filler where it indicated low areas. Don't forget around all the door, hood and trunk openings. They typically take a lot of work to get everything fitting flush and even.
I don't have any real body work skill but I noticed that you live in Ontario. So I would think that one thing to be carefull of is allowable temperature ranges of the various fillers you will be using. good luck and don't forget pics as you progress.
For sure. I don't have much in the way of heated space which is why I need to get the gaps and the filling and leveling between the body and the doors, hood and trunk done now while the weather holds. Once I get that done I have a warm space where I can take the body itself to continue with parting lines and block sanding, filling etc.
So this Saturday morning I will be starting...cleaners, sanding supplies, a gallon of Rage Gold and straight-edge in hand with a cup of coffee on the side.
Thanks to all for the advice and I will post pictures as I go along.
I CAN DO THIS!!
__________________
Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
I watched them use this on Trucks! some Saturday morning and you can paint it on with a brush. Like a lot of guys have said, I have very little knowledge (and even less experience) to be doing body work anytime soon. Luckily I'm not too close as of yet.
I used one of these long boards. It is pretty expensive but works well. This particular board has three removable metal rods so you can adjust the stiffness for flat areas or modest curves. You could probably make up a few similar boards on your own from sheets of plywood of various thicknesses. The longer the board, the straighter the body.
I watched them use this on Trucks! some Saturday morning and you can paint it on with a brush. Like a lot of guys have said, I have very little knowledge (and even less experience) to be doing body work anytime soon. Luckily I'm not too close as of yet.
When I was doing my car, Rage and Rage Gold were the preferred fillers on the Forum as they sanded easily and were very high quality. Not sure if that is still the case as it has been a few years. My total cost for bodywork supplies and tools was about $800. It's not cheap!
I do appreciate all the input. Took the day off work tomorrow so I am going to start in the morning. Two more quick questions.
1. The only area where there is a significant difference in level bewteen the panels is at the bottom front edge of the front door with that at the thickest being just under 1/4". Should I do the first fill with HSRF (I have some of that too) and then go to the Rage?
2. When rounding the edges of the panels such as doors and hood should I do a complete semi-circle suach as: "C" or an arc such as "(" ?
Thanks again.
__________________
Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
1. No, don't try to use HSRF in this way. Just the Rage. That's a common place to need filler. Just make sure you have it minimized as much as possible by adjusting the door hinges and the lower sill in/out with the mounting bolts. Those adjustments all interact, and it may be possible to minimize the difference more than you already have.
2. Like a "C." You want the panels rounded on both sides.
Here are a couple of exerpts from posts in my Mk4 bodywork thread relating to the driver's door:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKleiner
...Here's a shot showing the lower leading edge of the door where it meets the body on the left side. Please excuse my sorely lacking photographic abilities!
It will take a maximum of 1/8" buildup at the lower corner and then run off to nothing as it goes rearward and upwards, about the same as my Mk3. Speaking of buildup I broke out a Sharpie to show you the general areas that will have to get Rage on the driver's side:
*************************************************
...Just like I discovered with my Mk3 once you get through the first application of filler to start building it up it really isnt so bad. I lay masking tape onto the body all around the opening and on into the jamb so that the Rage is only getting applied to the door itself. After mixing up a good sized batch I apply it to the lower door, then while keeping one side of a long straightedge against the body screed it along the door to fill it to level. As soon as it begins to get firm use a utility knife and cut through the gap between the body and door, open it up and pull the tape off. You can easily trim the Rage while it's semi soft and not fully cured. You just continue to build it up by repeating the process, sanding and shaping between applications. This is after 4 applications and is ready for Slick Sand:
Question #2---
I wouldn't call the way I do it a "C" or "arc". It's more of a tiny 90 degree radius.
I cup a piece of 220 or 320 in the palm of my hand and then run it along the edge of the door, hood or trunklid a couple of times with light pressure to just ease over the sharp edge.
Thanks and luckily I have 3 different lenghts of those painters edging tools so I am ready to GO!
__________________
Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
Well I started Saturday morning and here is the progress so far. It is just like drywall. Put some on and sand and sand, then put more on and sand and sand.
I did discover that if some of the catalyst is good a little more is defineatly not! Hard to apply filler when it sets ip almost as soon as you mix it....lol.
So far I have put on 4 thin coats and flushed the door to the body and built up the door sill in a couple of spots where the gap was too large. The door gap is now even at about 1/8" except at the front top where it is a full 3/16. I will "grow" the rest of the gap to meet this.
I do need to fill a little more on the body at the door as I still have a little low spot just below the 3 black dots seen in pictures 3 and 4. I plan on one more very light fill over everything and then block it down from there, All in all it went pretty well...so far.
Please if you see anything horrendous don't hesitate to say so.
__________________
Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
At this point I highly recommend filling the ENTIRE flat portion of the door... edge to edge with Rage then block it out. It is so much easier getting it all straight with this procedure as opposed to filling the suspected low spots.
BTW is there any way you can suck the front portion of the body in where the front mount is instead of filling the door?
With my Mk 3.1 that is what I did. I never assumed the spacing that the body came with out of the crate was right and I found that even the thickness of one washer made a huge difference in getting the doors to fit well.
__________________
Click on to --- COMPETITIONCOBRA --- user name to view build progress in ALBUMS gallery.
Make sure you keep trying to open the door to see if it clears the fender. Usually it's really tight clearance for the first small angle til the door has cleared the fender. I actually had to had to sand off more of a bevel on the inside of the door edge to clear the fender but not open the visual gap.
__________________
FFR 5353K,351/400hp,TKO 500, 3-link w/3.08 and Truetrac, Koni DA coilovers front and rear,APE hardtop,Forte front and VPM rear swaybars
Make sure you keep trying to open the door to see if it clears the fender. Usually it's really tight clearance for the first small angle til the door has cleared the fender. I actually had to had to sand off more of a bevel on the inside of the door edge to clear the fender but not open the visual gap.
Exactly. I was going to say the same thing. On my Mk3, the doors would have hit the fenders when opening with only a 1/8 inch gap. I'm assuming the door hinge geometry for the Mk4 is similar. Remember that additional coats of primer, color, clear, etc. will also build up the edge. Plus I found when driving mine in gel coat that on a hot day the glass must expand slightly, because the gap would close slightly. I kept opening up the gap slightly, plus adding to the radius on the back side until I had good clearance. I don't have the exact measurement, and I'm away from home right now, but I think the gaps along the front of my doors (finished) are probably around 1/4 inch.
Make sure you keep trying to open the door to see if it clears the fender. Usually it's really tight clearance for the first small angle til the door has cleared the fender. I actually had to had to sand off more of a bevel on the inside of the door edge to clear the fender but not open the visual gap.
At this point the door opens without touching the body. I am going to open the gaps up to a full 3/16" (or perhaps a hair more) all the way around. I will put a bevel or larger radius on the backside of the door to ensure that there will never be any issues.
My goal right now is to get all panels flush where they meet and to make sure the gaps are correct. The driver's door is just about done and then I will turn to the passenger door. It needs very little except I need to build up the roll about 3/16" where it meets the dash roll and have the gaps opened up. My hope is to have everything flushed and gaps set asap and then get the body off and start the wheel well, parting lines and the block sanding.
__________________
Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
When you start block sanding, splurge and get the 3M Dry Guidecoat.
Seems pricey, but you'll see why it's worth it after you start block sanding.
__________________
FFR #7124 Mk 3.1, Levy 5 link, LCA's & brakes, 17" Halibrands, electric PS, SAI, Eibach springs, BOSS 427w, webers, hood louvers, tilt front. Delivered 12/23/09, 1st start 02/19/12. 1st go cart 03/03/12. Titled 10/3/12.
"I'm basing it on a collective interpretation of these particular cars. And whatever the hell I like". The Federalist Patriot Build blog: www.myersfamilyffrbuild.blogspot.com
When you start block sanding, splurge and get the 3M Dry Guidecoat.
Seems pricey, but you'll see why it's worth it after you start block sanding.
I looked this up and it seems to be a very interesting product. I did note that all videos and pictures show it over primer. Could I use it straight on the gel coat after an initial block sanding. I don't have spray equioment but I also noticed there are a nymber of aerosol guide coats available as well but I like the 3M no masking feature. As much as possible within my limitations and available equipment I would like to get the body to the painter as close to ready for paint as possible. I will take a lot longer than they would but my time is cheap.
Thanks for the input.
__________________
Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
Over the long weekend I started work on the passenger door. The door sill needed a bit of buildup as well as the top of the door where it meets the cowl, I tried rolling the door edge and used a piece of radiator hose as a guide. It worked great.
I gapped the trunk and the hood so I am getting close to my goal of being able to pull the body.
I do have a couple more questions.
1) The Hood - I have the FFR hinges and they are a PITA to adjust to get the hood to close straight but I did it! I have noticed that the hood never closes quite the same twice. Sometimes straight but sometines a 1/16 to an 1/8 inch to the left or right. I was thinking of finding some rubber guide blocks to attach to the underside of the hood that would let the hood settle correctly each time. So I guess this is a 2 part question. Is this even a good idea? and if so any ideas where to find them?
2)What grit paper should I take the body filler down to. I have gone over it all with 180. Should I go to 220 or even finer. I am going to purchase a couple of rattle cans of guide coat and wonder how fine I need to be before applying it?
Pictures will follow.
Thanks
__________________
Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
Could I use it straight on the gel coat after an initial block sanding.
I only block sanded after applying the high build primer. I'm certainly no expert, but I don't think block sanding the gel coat would serve any purpose. I'm assuming that your painter would use a high build primer so the guide coat is only useful for block sanding that.
__________________
FFR #7124 Mk 3.1, Levy 5 link, LCA's & brakes, 17" Halibrands, electric PS, SAI, Eibach springs, BOSS 427w, webers, hood louvers, tilt front. Delivered 12/23/09, 1st start 02/19/12. 1st go cart 03/03/12. Titled 10/3/12.
"I'm basing it on a collective interpretation of these particular cars. And whatever the hell I like". The Federalist Patriot Build blog: www.myersfamilyffrbuild.blogspot.com
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