Coolant Purge Issues

[mirose]

My inspection for NJ title is Thursday. I have been driving the car every few days and looking/inpsecting for any issues. I have found very few, if any. However, I seem to still be having issues getting my coolant system properly purged and in balance with the overflow tank.

1) when turn on my engine, my coolant expands a TON and I expel coolant all over my driveway once the car is warm (by overflowing the overflow tank). People have suggested that its because I still have air in the system and its the air that is burping out the coolant as much as it is. Someone suggested that after I run the engine, I babysit the process of the engine "sucking" back the coolant from the overflow tank and refill the tank as it gets lower because the FFR tank is kinda small and I might be sucking some air in as well (I think I was). So I did that the last few times I drove the car and I was thinking that it would be all cured as of today's test drive.

2) Today, I drove the car and not only did I get the typical coolant on the driveway, after a while I got some spraying out around the coolant fill cap, which made a nice mess under the hood as the fan belt then whipped it around inside the hood. Good fun!!!! I must not have tightened the fill cap properly because not only did I get this mess under the hood, I sucked a TON of air into the system and NOTHING got sucked back from the purge tank. Not a drop. So I just now refilled the radiator/hoses etc. It took about 1.5 quarts to get me up to full again...thats how much had been sprayed out by the loose cap I guess. I am going to chalk this up to my error, and not anything wrong with the cooling system...unless someone here thinks that something funny is going on....

3) Obviously I have to redo step 1 again and run the car and babysit the "suck-back" so I dont' get any air...but the reason for the post is to see if anyone else has had this kind of trouble getting the air out of the system and other than making sure I put the darn cap on properly next time, does anyone have any tips/tricks for getting this right? I do think the FFR tank is quite small and I might opt for a larger overflow tank in the near future.

Thanks for your advice! Michael

[Dan Babb]

When you fill it back up, try removing the temperature sender at the front of the intake. Allows air to escape. You can also jack the front end off the ground so air trapped at the back will make it's way forward.

Fill it slowly so you can put the sender back in when you see water coming out.

When I do the above, I don't get air stuck in the block.

[mirose]

Thanks...I'll give that a try

[Tatika]

Lisle Corporation

Has anyone tried this? It seems like a good idea for removing the air pockets that seem to get trapped.

Greg

[AC Bill]

Are you using a T filler on the upper hose, or adding coolant via the rad cap?

If at the rad cap, it is probably to low to burp all the air, as I suspect the upper rad hose is higher, and air will tend to pocket in it. The simple solution would be to add a T filler, and plug the rad opening, and return line spigot. Run the return line from the T filler spigot, to your overflow bottle.

If you have a T-filler on the upper rad hose, then you should top up the coolant, leave the cap off, and run the engine (at idle) until the T stat opens. Make sure if you have a heater, that the water valve is open, to allow coolant to flow through the core, and get any air out.
You should see air starting to bubble out, or the coolant level dropping. Add more coolant as needed, until the bubbles stop, and the coolant level remains steady. Make sure you have coolant in your overflow tank at least to the "cold" mark. Do a final top up, and put the T filler cap on, and watch your temp gauge. It may climb initially, then should level out at the normal operation temp for your engine. After it has run for 10-15 min's at normal temp, shut it down, and let it cool off. Watch your overflow bottle. Initially it may fill up quite a bit, but should start to drop back down to the cold level

I have heard from others that the FFR provided overflow bottle is to small, to allow for the normal coolant expansion, and they needed bigger ones. Just saying..

As to coolant spraying out of the fill cap. Waht was your temp gauge reading when this happened? Was it running hot?
It could be a bad cap seal, to low a pressure rating, or has a defective spring, allowing it to release below the rating for it..That could be part of your problem, If the cap isn't sealing properly, air may be sucked in, instead of coolant from the overflow bottle. This could be the reason for the ongoing problem.

[Mikey_P]

Tatika, I think Eddie used used one of those a while back and it worked pretty good for him. Seems like a good idea if you are having problems with getting your system purged.

[M DOUGHERTY]

mirose
there are a few things to look at here.
1)
the FFR supplied over flow tank is to small for most aplications.
replace it with a plastic one from auto zone/pepboys etc.
dont forget to drill the hole in the bottom nipple of the plastic tank ( bigger is better in a overflow tank )

2)
if coolant came out around the cap make sure it is seating correctly. I have run into caps that are not compatiple with the FFR supplied CSR filler.the metal plate that holds the rubber gasket on bottoms before the gasket seals. The old moroso units had their own problems.

3)
as stated earlier remove a fitting from the intake as you fill the .
open the air bleed on the FFR radiator (driver top )
as you fill and coolant comes out of the intake plug that first, then as it comes out the rad plug that, then once you reach the top of the filler cap it.
feel free to call if you have any more issues
Ill be glad to help.
Later
Mark D

[DARKPT]

Mark, how much force should it take to get the FFR air bleed open? Mine seems stuck, but I'm hesitant to apply more force for fear I'm breaking something. You just twist the two "wings" counter-clockwise, right? Is it a real steep thread like I've seen in my daily drivers?

[rich grsc]

Originally Posted by M DOUGHERTY

mirose
there are a few things to look at here.
1)
the FFR supplied over flow tank is to small for most aplications.
replace it with a plastic one from auto zone/pepboys etc.
dont forget to drill the hole in the bottom nipple of the plastic tank ( bigger is better in a overflow tank )

2)
if coolant came out around the cap make sure it is seating correctly. I have run into caps that are not compatiple with the FFR supplied CSR filler.the metal plate that holds the rubber gasket on bottoms before the gasket seals. The old moroso units had their own problems.

3)
as stated earlier remove a fitting from the intake as you fill the .
open the air bleed on the FFR radiator (driver top )
as you fill and coolant comes out of the intake plug that first, then as it comes out the rad plug that, then once you reach the top of the filler cap it.
feel free to call if you have any more issues
Ill be glad to help.
Later
Mark D

Here is a picture of issue #2. The red area I just filed away for clearance.

[CraigS]

Two thoughts. 1-overflow tank is too small. I have the 2 quart tank from Breeze and I wouldn't want to go smaller.2-These pressure caps are difficult to tighten.I have put a little bearing grease on the underside of the edge of the filler where the two hooks on the edge of the cap ride. Seems to me the aluminum gets corroded and wasn't a very smooth surface to start with. Before putting the cap on,look at that edge that the cap hooks to. Mine gradually gets thicker and then there is a little bit of a hump. As you twist the cap,it gets tighter and tighter but the hooks must ride under that hump. Sorry, I can't find a pic.

[JKleiner]

I exchanged PMs with a builder a while back who was experiencing similar issues and finally determined that he had the hose from the "T" filler connected to the wrong nipple on the overflow tank. Look inside your overflow through the cap and make sure that you are connected to the shorter of the two standpipes. When hot and full the coolant level should be below the longer one...it vents to atmosphere. I agree that the capacity is marginal but after some babysitting and a bit of trial & error I was able to get the coolant level established and use it on Steve's "indy14" car.

Good luck,
Jeff

[Someday I Suppose]

Michael, congrats and good luck this week!!

On your #1, you said when you turn the car on your getting purging from the tank, is this as soon as you start it up or when its hot? If its at start up then I think Jeff might be onto something, or post some pics of the coolant set-up. In my mind you shouldn't get expansion until it heats up, and it sounds like your pumping coolant into the overflow.

-Scott

Originally Posted by JKleiner

I exchanged PMs with a builder a while back who was experiencing similar issues and finally determined that he had the hose from the "T" filler connected to the wrong nipple on the overflow tank. Look inside your overflow through the cap and make sure that you are connected to the shorter of the two standpipes. When hot and full the coolant level should be below the longer one...it vents to atmosphere. I agree that the capacity is marginal but after some babysitting and a bit of trial & error I was able to get the coolant level established and use it on Steve's "indy14" car.

Good luck,
Jeff

[mirose]

Originally Posted by M DOUGHERTY

mirose
there are a few things to look at here.
1)
the FFR supplied over flow tank is to small for most aplications.
replace it with a plastic one from auto zone/pepboys etc.
dont forget to drill the hole in the bottom nipple of the plastic tank ( bigger is better in a overflow tank )

I agree its too small...If you are in perfect balance and have no air at all it might work fine. I think I am going to get a bigger one unless this gets sorted out real soon. Too bad because its certainly nice to look at, chrome and all....

Originally Posted by M DOUGHERTY

2)
if coolant came out around the cap make sure it is seating correctly. I have run into caps that are not compatiple with the FFR supplied CSR filler.the metal plate that holds the rubber gasket on bottoms before the gasket seals. The old moroso units had their own problems.

I took the car out for an even longer drive tonight and had no spray or problems at all...I am 99% sure I just hadn't correctly tightened the cap the last time I had put it on. Just a technical error, nothing more. It certainly is a finnicky cap...if not put on perfectly it doesn't seal well.

Originally Posted by M DOUGHERTY

3)
as stated earlier remove a fitting from the intake as you fill the .
open the air bleed on the FFR radiator (driver top )
as you fill and coolant comes out of the intake plug that first, then as it comes out the rad plug that, then once you reach the top of the filler cap it.
feel free to call if you have any more issues
Ill be glad to help.
Later
Mark D

Thanks....If it isn't sorted out soon by just babysitting the expansion/cooling cycle then I will do this. right not I am full of fluid so if I loosen the intake connection to the upper radiator hose right now I'll make a huge mess....Next time I am low I'll try it.

Originally Posted by CraigS

Two thoughts. 1-overflow tank is too small. I have the 2 quart tank from Breeze and I wouldn't want to go smaller.2-These pressure caps are difficult to tighten.I have put a little bearing grease on the underside of the edge of the filler where the two hooks on the edge of the cap ride. Seems to me the aluminum gets corroded and wasn't a very smooth surface to start with. Before putting the cap on,look at that edge that the cap hooks to. Mine gradually gets thicker and then there is a little bit of a hump. As you twist the cap,it gets tighter and tighter but the hooks must ride under that hump. Sorry, I can't find a pic.

1) Agree totally and 2) Yes thats exactly what happened. If not seated perfectly they fail under pressure well below what they are rated for.

Originally Posted by JKleiner

I exchanged PMs with a builder a while back who was experiencing similar issues and finally determined that he had the hose from the "T" filler connected to the wrong nipple on the overflow tank. Look inside your overflow through the cap and make sure that you are connected to the shorter of the two standpipes. When hot and full the coolant level should be below the longer one...it vents to atmosphere. I agree that the capacity is marginal but after some babysitting and a bit of trial & error I was able to get the coolant level established and use it on Steve's "indy14" car.

Good luck,
Jeff

Thanks Jeff. I will quadrouple check this, but it was one of the first things I thought of. My understanding is this: The longer pipe is actually the "drain" and when the coolant rises above the height of the longer pipe, the coolant flows down and into this long pipe and onto the ground....The shorter pipe is where the hot, expanded coolant enters the overflow tank at the bottom...and this extra fluid fills the tank from the bottom, up...until it overflows the longer pipe and drains down to the ground....When the engine cools down and there is contraction, it draws the fluid from the short nipple at the bottom of the overflow tank back into the coolant system. If this is correct. then I have it hooked up right.

Originally Posted by Someday I Suppose

Michael, congrats and good luck this week!!

On your #1, you said when you turn the car on your getting purging from the tank, is this as soon as you start it up or when its hot? If its at start up then I think Jeff might be onto something, or post some pics of the coolant set-up. In my mind you shouldn't get expansion until it heats up, and it sounds like your pumping coolant into the overflow.

-Scott

Thanks Scott. Thursday is the day! I have been driving the car around (Shhhh don't tell anyone!!!!) and getting gutsier and gutsier about driving further and further despite not having tags yet. These cars are a TON of fun!!! I love it sooo much. And to the naysayers out there who think the music system is a waste....I think NOT. I LOVE playing my music while I drive. Sounds great along side the engine noise!!!

As for your concern about Jeff's concern...I think I put it to rest in my response to him above...but if anyone still thinks I have an issue with that hook up I can certainly post a few pics. As for when the coolant spills over...its NOT on start up. Its only after the car is warm. Usually ten minutes or more.

And one final thing...your alignment you did for me with your fastrax is still really really good! I track totally true and so far the handling is awesome. thanks again. That being said...Mark D...plan on seeing me at your place for some fine tuning once I get her legal and on the road....Scotts post about his time at your shop getting his car balanced and alligned sounded awesome.

Thanks guys. - Michael

[DARKPT]

Michael, I replaced my FFR tank with a larger one that looks just like it. It's about double the original volume. There are a ton of sellers on E-Bay with them.

Dan

[mirose]

Originally Posted by DARKPT

Michael, I replaced my FFR tank with a larger one that looks just like it. It's about double the original volume. There are a ton of sellers on E-Bay with them.

Dan

Thanks. I just did that tonight. 3 inch X 16 inch model. Looks great. 45 bucks delivered. Thanks for the tip!

[CraigS]

Mirose- now a question for you. Where did you get that hood prop and can we see a pic of how it attaches to the hood please?

[Jack Wojack]

do you have a 1/8 inch hole in your thermostat? Near the outer rim but inside the sealing area. Install the thermostat with the hole at the top.

This helps to get the air out of the system. New thermostats from Ford have this hole with a one-way check valve. I removed the valve.

Jack

[mirose]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Mirose- now a question for you. Where did you get that hood prop and can we see a pic of how it attaches to the hood please?

Here is a link to a thread I started on that topic. It's from finishline.

Finishline Hood Prop Install

[NiceGuyEddie]

seems most new thermostats have the hole/plug thingy built in. in any case, it certainly could not hurt.

Lislie Funnel is awesome, i have used it 10x (and on different cars) but it certainly won't solve a bigger problem.

.

[CraigS]

Thanks. i can't find it at Finishline but could probably make a copy so i saved the pic from your original post.

[mirose]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Thanks. i can't find it at Finishline but could probably make a copy so i saved the pic from your original post.

Here is a link to the page. Its $45.00 Its under the heading of latches for some reason

Finish Line Accessories

[mirose]

Originally Posted by Jack Wojack

do you have a 1/8 inch hole in your thermostat? Near the outer rim but inside the sealing area. Install the thermostat with the hole at the top.

This helps to get the air out of the system. New thermostats from Ford have this hole with a one-way check valve. I removed the valve.

Jack

Thanks Jack. If it persists, I'll try that. I honestly just think the 1 qt FFR overflow tank wasn't enough. I'd suck that baby dry and suck some air into the system every time I let the car cool down. I just installed a 2 qt aftermarket one. That should solve the problem. If not, I'll start doing other things.

Originally Posted by NiceGuyEddie

seems most new thermostats have the hole/plug thingy built in. in any case, it certainly could not hurt.

Thanks for the pic Eddie. If things persist, I'll try that.

.