Starter Grounding Help

[timmil]

I have been having problems with hot starting. To correct it I have been trying the fixes in the following order.

1. Add a heat wrap on the starter. This seems to help somewhat as I took it out today for a drive. Parked it for about 35 minutes and in the past this would not have been enough time to wait to restart it but today it restarted but it was hesitant.

2. Add a starter ground. As it stands I have no ground strap between the starter and the frame or block. This is my next step.

3. Mini-Torgue starter. This is the last result.

My questions are...

For a grounding wire from the starter to the frame I a planning on installing a 2/0 gauge wire.

What lug size is needed on the starter side 3/8, 1/4.. ?

And where do you put it, between the mounting bolt head and starter body or the starter body and the frame?

I am in the process of ordering the cable and parts to make the ground cable and want to make sure I order the right stuff.

Thanks!

- Tim

[conger]

I was curious about what additional ground wires that you have in place already that bond the engine to the frame.

Gerry.

[Michael Everson]

You can buy a basic ground cable at any parts store with 3/8 holes on each end. Put one end under the head of the bolt and the other end to the frame. Where is your battery ground connected? Frame or engine?

[timmil]

Originally Posted by conger

I was curious about what additional ground wires that you have in place already that bond the engine to the frame.

Gerry.

Great question Gerry. I have a rear mounted battery. The battery is grounded to the frame and the block is grounded to the frame as well. I also have a ground between the bell housing and the frame. They are all 4 gauge. I plan on changing them out to 2/0 gauge after the driving season here in Chicago.

- Tim

[gwnorth]

Same problem, bought Chinese-made mini-starter (PMGR =permanent magnet gear reduction) from Mike Forte, problem solved. I had added grounds all over the place previous to no effect.
Lots and lots of stuff in the archives on this topic. It was a big issue on Mustangs also according to the literature.

[rich grsc]

Dont waste your money on 2/0 cable, just replace the starter with a new mini-starter. I use the FFr supplied 4 ga with a mini, no problem.

[M DOUGHERTY]

ill bet non of these are the problem
are you using the ffr hela battery switch.
If you are then it is most likely bad.
to find out
just put both cables on the same side of the switch and walla no more starting issues.
I have had to replace over a dozen of these switches over the years.

[JKleiner]

A circuit is only as good as the smallest component so if you have #4 cables on the positive side the entire circuit is effectively #4, even if your ground strap is #2.

Jeff

[CraigS]

If you go to a mini-starter rewire the firewall solenoid like this.
Instruction Sheets - Ford Racing Performance Parts
Click either of the mini-starter links

[Dave M]

I agree with Jeff if you are using the kit supplied #4 cable thats probably most of your problem. I had the same issues with mine, after trying a few different things, I changed the positive cable to a larger size and have had zero problems since. I can shut it down after a hot run and restart it a couple of minutes later and it turns as if its cold.

[DannyBoy]

There are numerous threads on the issue of hard-starting when the engine is hot. My car started fine when it was cold, but would intermittently crank very slowly when it got hot, sometimes so slow the car wouldn’t start at all. I installed all the additional grounding straps recommended in many of the threads and still had the problem. The light-bulb went off for me when I jumped the battery with another car at a point when my the car would barely turn over. Once I got the jumper cables in place I turned the key and it turned over freely with no problem whatsoever. This was only 60 seconds after I couldn’t get the car to turnover at all. That told me it wasn’t a grounding issue, it wasn’t a tolerance issue in the engine, it wasn’t a starter issue. It was a battery issue. When the battery was cold, the car would start without a problem. When it got hot, the problem would appear. I noticed the top of the battery was hot to the touch when the problem was present. I’ve since replaced the battery and the problem has been 100% eliminated. It leaves me to wonder if a large % of these problems aren’t simply due to bad batteries. This problem isn’t unique to our cars, you see it on other car enthusiast sites. Since most special interest cars are stored during the winter months, it could be a factor of not keeping batteries fully charge during storage year after year that eventually causes it to have this type of problem.

[AustinSnake]

I fought these issues for a while, adding grounds, etc, and in the end, the mini starter was the solid fix.

[timmil]

Thanks guys, all of this is good stuff. I should give you all a little background on when this issue started. When I first completed the car back in '06 I never had this problem for the first 1500 miles. This was with the current wiring which is the kit supplied cabling and an Optima RedTop battery. Around 1500 miles, I started having an oil pressure issue and had to pull the motor. We fixed that (it was the wrong pickup and it had a pinhole so it was sucking air), replaced the bearings and put it all back together. Upon installing the engine, I started having the issue. I replaced the battery with an Interstate because the Redtop had gone bad. That was at the end of the season and honestly didn't drive it enough to encounter the issue. I don't want to believe that it is the starter but, in hindsight in that first 1500 miles each drive was always followed by a rest of about 1 hour or so before I tried to restart it. In hindsight I probably didn't encounter the issue during that time because of the wait. Fast forward to today and what I have done so far.

1. Checked all the grounds and found them all good.
2. Wrapped the starter with a heat sink wrap.

Took it out for a drive on Sunday morning for breakfast. After it was parked for about 30 minutes it started, but it was hesitant to do so.

Mark: Thanks for the tip on the switch, but I do not have that installed so we can rule that out.

Jeff: Understand the issue of the sizing. My intent was to install the 2 gauge ground to the starter and then over the winter switch everything else out. That would at least get me to the 2 gauge circuit next driving season.

DannyBoy: Interesting take on it. In my case this is a battery that I unfortunately and carelessly let go dead over the winter, so your take made me raise a brow. I am mulling this one.

It's funny, I spend so much time trying the cheaper fixes that in the long run I waste more time and money and it costs me more then if I would just replace the starter.

At this point I think I am going to drive it a bit and see how it goes. If it continues to be a problem then I will probably replace the starter. With that said, those of you who replaced the starter, which one did you buy and why?

- Tim

[johns427]

When I had this problem,I added grounds, insulated the starter, and installed a high torque mini starter from Mustangs Unlimited, 2 ga cable, etc., and still had the same problem. Changed to the biggest front-mounted battery that would fit and problem seems to be solved, but cranking is still a little slower when it's just shut for a minute.

[Butch B]

Just what John said/did except no bigger cables. I went with a bigger CCA battery & now starts when hot. Does turn over a lil slower when hot, but does start!
hth
Butch

[JoeE]

Originally Posted by Butch B

Just what John said/did except no bigger cables. I went with a bigger CCA battery Butch

I did that too not enough. Just buy the ebay mini starter and be done with it. My car starts fine all day at AutoX. Car temp 210+ asphalt temp 90+ restart atleast every 10 to 15 min x 10, no problems.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by timmil

At this point I think I am going to drive it a bit and see how it goes. If it continues to be a problem then I will probably replace the starter. With that said, those of you who replaced the starter, which one did you buy and why?

- Tim

You mentioned that you ran the battery down over the winter. Draining a battery like that is very bad for the battery and can cause problems. Do yourself a favor and just pull the battery and have it load tested. Most auto parts stores will do it for free.

Next winter hook a Battery Tender up to the battery so that it'll be ready to go fully charged in the Spring.

[DannyBoy]

Originally Posted by Joe

You mentioned that you ran the battery down over the winter. Draining a battery like that is very bad for the battery and can cause problems. Do yourself a favor and just pull the battery and have it load tested. Most auto parts stores will do it for free.

A watchout there is it appears batteries will give different load-test results cold vs hot which is how the problem manifests itself on the car. I had my battery tested at the local autoparts store and it showed as being perfectly fine, but that was in a cold state. My experience of jumping it when it was turning slowly proved to me it had to be the battery. I also bought a higher CCA model, and the problem hasn't reoccured all summer. I think keeping a trickle charger on it while in storage is the key.