Should have left well enough alone !!!! Did my 347 stroker really need an SC!!!
After a installing the SC last fall I took the car in for a Dyno Tune. We were having some issues trying to get it right when we noticed that the front seal was blowing out some oil. Stopped the tune and went home and replaced the front seal. Soon after I noticed that the car was blowing smoke out through the valve cover breathers that are plumbed into a catch can with filter, on a drive under load it then also blew out the PCV.
I did a compression test and found that the number 4 cylinder as half the compression of the others. I took the top half of the engine off checked out the cylinder walls tested the heads and found out that one of the valves in number 4 was sticking. Took the heads in had the valves reground. Put in new head and intake gaskets and put it all together.
I will be buggered if the damn thing is doing exactly the same thing again!!!! Took it for a run and low and behold the thing still pumps out smoke from the valve cover catch can. Just when I thought it could not get worst I blew the PCV valve out again and spewed oil around.
I am at my wits end, ready to call it quits on this thing can anyone offer up an explanation for why the pressure is building in the engine? I think the rings are fine so how is the air getting in?
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FFR6280, Non Donor, Porsche Midnight Blue Metallic with viper silver stripes. EFI 347 Stroker with Vortech SC, Performer heads, RPM Perf II Intake, 90mm lightening Maf with programmable Diablo, 39lb inj, TKO600, 3 Link. Frame and panels powder coated metallic silver. Chopped off trunk hump, air splitter, hidden body mts, rolled fenders and cockpit. Foot box coolers.
You could always pull off the SC for a while until you get some seat time and work out the bugs. The problem with your cylinder head was probably not caused by the SC. The guides were probably too tight to start with if they were never checked. Everyone thinks you can just buy a set of heads and bolt em on. Not so, the guides should be checked for clearance at minimum and possibly a resurface to be sure theyre flat. I would be willing to bet it was an exhaust. In SC applications, the exhaust valves see some extreme heat so I always upgrade to a higher quality severe duty valve and make sure the guides are loose enough. A few things to note as well is to make sure your fuel system is up to the task. A 255 intank pump is a good start but you might want to add a T-Rex external pump if you dont already have one. You will want to make sure your fuel lines and rails are large enough as well. I blew many head gaskets because of the stock FFR supplied lines and stock rails. I finally switched to a road race pickup with #10 line to an A-1000 pump and then #8 to the front splitting through a Y block into each Vortech rail then to a boost sensitive regulator and a #6 back to the tank. I am running a 383W with a YS at 16lbs of boost with 60lb injectors. I had plenty of fuel on the dyno when it was tuned and it made 650hp to the tires and has lived for 5 years without issue. I do not run the PCV and it has no ill effects. I have a breather on the valve cover and thats it. It doesnt use oil or blow out the dipstick or any seals. I have a pump gas tune with a manual Mr Freeze meth injection as the safety net for a bad tank of fuel. Talk to your machine shop to see if they checked all the guides in your heads. Put it back together with some Fel Pro MLS gaskets and put some miles on it. Enjoy it naturally aspirated for a while until youre ready for the SC again. Come back at it and you'll get there. SCs do add some complication to the mix and require special care and feeding to not be troublesome. Good Luck with it and if you have any other questions feel free to PM me and I will try to answer from my experiences.
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stock configuration has a vent line from the throttle body to the passenger side valve cover. Did you plug the connection to the throttle body and move that end of the vent line to the supercharger suction side piping? If not, you're putting full boost into your crankcase.
stock configuration has a vent line from the throttle body to the passenger side valve cover. Did you plug the connection to the throttle body and move that end of the vent line to the supercharger suction side piping? If not, you're putting full boost into your crankcase.
I had similar issues with mine, I currently have it disconnected for two reasons.
First I am working to get my twEECer tune right so as not to have engine failure problems. Second I dont have the $$ to do a proper crankcase ventilation system, running 1/2 line from each valve cover to a breather separator http://www.summitracing.com/parts/STF-5115/
I already capped my TB line and ran the hose off of the filler neck to the sucking side of the SC. I still need to relieve more pressure.
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what about just plain old open breathers. Grinding the valves wont fix a sticky one that a guide problem or a bent valve stem Bob
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I would suggest that you get rid of the blower and get the engine sorted out and running 100% NA first, then add the blower back into the mix. It helps to get rid of some variables.
Erik, The one big one goes to the brake booster, the other big one goes to the PCV valve and the small one is vacuum (fuel regulator, MSD boost unit and the Air bypass from the Super charger.)
I did not change the PCV valve. It is the stock one that was in it before I put in the SC.
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FFR6280, Non Donor, Porsche Midnight Blue Metallic with viper silver stripes. EFI 347 Stroker with Vortech SC, Performer heads, RPM Perf II Intake, 90mm lightening Maf with programmable Diablo, 39lb inj, TKO600, 3 Link. Frame and panels powder coated metallic silver. Chopped off trunk hump, air splitter, hidden body mts, rolled fenders and cockpit. Foot box coolers.
Most/many stock style do not seal really well when significant pressure is pushed down against the back of them. This may be allowing boost to leak into the crankcase.
One of the Centi guys will probably have a recommendation (my KB is easy in regard to always having a suction side on the manifold).
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the first post references valve cover breathers and a catch can w/ a filter. With an open crankcase, you shouldn't be running a PCV at all with EFI (assuming mass air). That's unmetered air getting in through the PCV. If you're going to leave the open breather system on there, just plug the PCV and forget it.
I'd start with another leakdown test...that should help you pinpoint where the boost is getting into the crankcase. If you hear air escaping the breather (or oil fill...leave it open), it's the rings. If the leakdown looks OK, I'd look hard at the intake gasket next.
Wade, Are you suggesting that hook up a compressor to a fitting in the spark plug hole pressurize it with air and then listen for air coming out the top end? Just do this to each cylinder?
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FFR6280, Non Donor, Porsche Midnight Blue Metallic with viper silver stripes. EFI 347 Stroker with Vortech SC, Performer heads, RPM Perf II Intake, 90mm lightening Maf with programmable Diablo, 39lb inj, TKO600, 3 Link. Frame and panels powder coated metallic silver. Chopped off trunk hump, air splitter, hidden body mts, rolled fenders and cockpit. Foot box coolers.
a leakdown tester does just that.....you bring each cylinder to exactly top dead center on the compression stroke (both valves closed) and then you pressurize the tester, usually with 100 PSI. Any air flow means "leakdown" and is escaping somewhere....this will show up as a pressure drop across the orifice (usually .040") between the 2 gauges. You may be able to rent/borrow one from an auto parts store.
You can also simply do the same thing w/o the tester and just put air pressure on the cylinder at TDC. Pull the oil fill cap off and if you hear/feel a lot of air escaping, that's a good sign of a ring problem. It'll also tell you if you have a valve sealing problem if you get air into the intake or exhaust. Bubbles/pressure in the radiator mean head gasket.
You'll get *some* leakage past your rings regardless (unless you used gapless). The tester helps quantify the leakage and allows you to compare each cylinder. If there's a big difference between cylinders, you'll probably be able to tell just by the sound.
Pay attention when you put each cylinder on TDC....if it's not exactly TDC when you test, the air pressure will turn the engine. I usually put the car in 5th gear and set the e-brake just in case I'm off a couple degrees.
Wade, I will get a tester and do as you suggest. Does checking the compression on each cylinder do the same thing, ie put the compression tester on a cylinder turn the car over several times and compare the highest reading between cylinders?
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FFR6280, Non Donor, Porsche Midnight Blue Metallic with viper silver stripes. EFI 347 Stroker with Vortech SC, Performer heads, RPM Perf II Intake, 90mm lightening Maf with programmable Diablo, 39lb inj, TKO600, 3 Link. Frame and panels powder coated metallic silver. Chopped off trunk hump, air splitter, hidden body mts, rolled fenders and cockpit. Foot box coolers.
I will try to help. Yes a compression test and a leakdown test are similar. A compression test will show big problems. It is kind of like measuring a brake rotor with a ruler instead of a micrometer. The leakdown will also help identify the problem. You can "usually" hear the air escaping and determine from where it is escaping.
I hope this helps
Ben
While a compression test is a dynamic test (engine moving), a cylinder leakdown test (C.L.T.) is a static test (engine at rest). The compression test measures how much pressure the engine can produce while cranking; in contrast to the C.L.T., which measures how much pressure is lost in the engine. In a C.L.T. the engine is placed on TDC of the cylinder in question and using a similar type of connector as the compression test, we fill the cylinder with pressure. The tester then measures the volume of air needed to maintain a predetermined pressure in the cylinder. This reading is expressed in a percentage. Good cylinder leakdown readings should be below 5-8%.
The great thing about C.L.T. is that it deals with how well the cylinder is sealing and nothing else. The readings are not affected by carbon deposits, cam timing, or even engine cranking speed.
Got it! I will get at it this weekend and get back with the results of both. Hopefully this will provide the definitive evidence to point me in the right direction. Thanks guys have a wonderful weekend !
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FFR6280, Non Donor, Porsche Midnight Blue Metallic with viper silver stripes. EFI 347 Stroker with Vortech SC, Performer heads, RPM Perf II Intake, 90mm lightening Maf with programmable Diablo, 39lb inj, TKO600, 3 Link. Frame and panels powder coated metallic silver. Chopped off trunk hump, air splitter, hidden body mts, rolled fenders and cockpit. Foot box coolers.
Thought maybe that I had the solution. I spoke to Gordon Levy and thought that maybe the pressurized air was making its way from the plenum upper through line that went to the PCV valve. I took the large line off the back of the upper intake, the one that went to the PCV valve. Blocked off the nipple at the intake and capped off the PCV Valve and placed it back in the PCV housing at the back of the intake. I have a valve cover breather in each Valve cover so no real need for the PCV. Took it out for a drive and no luck, blew the PCV valve out again!!!!! Back to the drawing board.
Spent the afternoon rigging up an air tool to check the cylinders for blow by. Pulled the valve covers off and started to do the blow by test on each cylinder starting back left. Cranked the engine over with a ratchet on the front crank pulley bolt. Cycled through valve sequence watching the rockers arms to ensure I was at TDC. Wiggled the rockers to ensure no pressure on the valve stems and springs ie ensuring the valves fully seated and closed. Put the tranny in 5th gear and E brake on.
Screwed in my air chuck to the spark plug hole and put 100 PSI in the cylinder. The 100 PSI bled out in 5 seconds hissing up through the galleys!!! The car did not even move, ie the air never even pushed the cylinder down. I thought that maybe the valves were not quite seated or at TDC so I went through the sequence 5 times and each time the same thing bled out in maybe 10 secs. Went to the other cylinders and the pressure from the air being introduced in to the cylinder caused the car to move slightly, ie the piston was being forced down.
So here I sit - Intake off, valve covers off pondering my next move. In my mind it could be one of two things - 1. rings have failed in number 4 and the pressure in the crank is being caused by "blow by" through the rings. 2. one or both valves in 4 are not seating properly and the air leaking out is not by the rings but out through the top. I just had the heads done a month ago before I put it back together so I would be surprised if this was it.
In addition the engine seemed to run fine when I had it out for the test drive after reassembly. Would it run well if the valve (s) were not seated?
Is my next step to pull out the engine??? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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FFR6280, Non Donor, Porsche Midnight Blue Metallic with viper silver stripes. EFI 347 Stroker with Vortech SC, Performer heads, RPM Perf II Intake, 90mm lightening Maf with programmable Diablo, 39lb inj, TKO600, 3 Link. Frame and panels powder coated metallic silver. Chopped off trunk hump, air splitter, hidden body mts, rolled fenders and cockpit. Foot box coolers.
So where is it leaking out from? If it is coming out the intake then it's an intake valve issue, if it is coming out the exhaust it is an exhaust valve issue and if it is coming out a breather or the oil fill tube then it is a ring issue.
I can't wrap my head around how it's blowing the PCV valve out if you have open breathers in both valve covers. The amount of blowby would have to be great enough to overwhelm the breathers, then build up enough pressure in the cc to push the PCV out.
I have a blow-by problem w/ my 347 right now, and just idling, there's a significant amount of smoke/vapor escaping the valve cover breather. It's very noticable. Yours would have to be a complete smoke show.
Apologies for posting pre-second-cup-of-coffee, but did you consider a head gasket leak at #4?
If you are hearing a ton of leakage, try squirting oil in #4 to see if it holds a bit better.
I've always found that the old "rubber hose to my ear" works great for finding the source of leaks -
Have you confirmed that your breathers are actually open? If they aren't somehow it would explain popping out the PCV.
Unrelated, what is the unconnected terminal on the intake side of the SC? If it is ACT note that you need to measure it after the dizzy compresses the charge (pv=nrt and all).
I did have the vapour etc coming out of the breather can connected to the valve covers at idle as well? The air was coming out of the oil filler cap before I pulled the valve covers off. It is very difficult to isolate where the air is leaking up from now that the valve covers are off. I will try listening with a hose at the exhaust pipe and then the intake valve to try to isolate if it is a valve issue.. more to follow
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FFR6280, Non Donor, Porsche Midnight Blue Metallic with viper silver stripes. EFI 347 Stroker with Vortech SC, Performer heads, RPM Perf II Intake, 90mm lightening Maf with programmable Diablo, 39lb inj, TKO600, 3 Link. Frame and panels powder coated metallic silver. Chopped off trunk hump, air splitter, hidden body mts, rolled fenders and cockpit. Foot box coolers.
The possibilities a a little limited as to the issues and they are all bad. The levels of bad very.
1) blown head gasket probably between the cylinder and the valley pan area.
2) broken rings
3) burnt piston or pistons
The first one you may be able to see if you pull the intake and use a mirror to follow the gasket between the head and block. The others you will need to pull the heads to check for but you may be able to see a burnt piston using a bore scope.
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I did have the vapour etc coming out of the breather can connected to the valve covers at idle as well? The air was coming out of the oil filler cap before I pulled the valve covers off. It is very difficult to isolate where the air is leaking up from now that the valve covers are off. I will try listening with a hose at the exhaust pipe and then the intake valve to try to isolate if it is a valve issue.. more to follow
I'm just trying to figure this out. How was the air leaking out of the oil filler cap before you pulled the valve covers? You had to pull the valve covers to TDC the cylinders.
Leave the air hooked up to keep the cylinder under pressure while you listen for the leak. The leak will usually have an odd sound. It sort of sounds like someone "playing the jug" but with a constant higher pitched sound.
Head gaskets are the hardest to figure out but the easiest to fix. If a valve is bad, you will hear it in the intake or through the exhaust pipe. If a ring or piston is bad, the leak will go down and can be heard through the filler cap
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