Help me build this 351W engine:

[David_T]

Some people do things intelligently and plan them out and it works out beautifully. I'm the other guy.

I was originally going to use a 4.6L DOHC from a 96. I went against that route and purchased a 351W block.

What this car will be:
Reliable and fun on the street and the summer business run about car, and occasional summer trip vehicle with the price of new engine work and parts to IDEALLY be under $700.
What this car will NOT be:
Race, FI, well over 350ish HP, hard to start.

Other important information:
I have some low compression forged pistons (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SLP-L2446F/ except that mine are .030 overbore) that I want to replace. I would prefer a higher compression (10 or 11-1, currently these pistons and the GT40P heads I am eyeballing will provide about 9-1). Originally it was going to be low compression for FI, but that is not the way I'll be taking this engine, I am just going to keep it NA. That being said, I want a good suggested piston set, preferably one I can buy with the money used from selling these. (By the way, anyone want to buy these pistons?)
**This is a roller conversion, the conversion kit was bought from Summit, so I hear people on the street say we'll need a special cam.**

I'd also like to know what piston and cam combination will be good for this given my price range.

As mentioned, I'm looking at the GT40P heads (I know they need to be drilled out to bolt onto the 351W).

[Bob Taylor]

at that power level you really don't need any fancy parts use the hyper tuetectic (sp) pistons , way cheaper excellent durability, you will need a "special" coversion cam , I don't think you can use any of the ford rollers. Just get all the parts to rebuild the engine for a 93-96 F150 Lightning factory rated 240hp and change the cam. Under $700 is very hard , the block work will be 1/2 the head work and springs will be more than that . If you can find a good running motor 93-96 you'll pay about that, and still need intake manifold + carb etc.. bo b

[cwrandolph]

Nothing hateful about 9:1 compression if you aren't looking for max HP.

[Bob Cowan]

You're not asking for a whole lot, so finding the right parts at a good price should not be that difficult.

For pistons, cast replacements will work fine. No need to spend the big bux on forged, or even hypereutectic. Look at Sealed Power and TRW for quality parts. On a similar note, stock replacement iron rings will work just fine - that's what the factory puts in. Factory replacements are usually dished. But flat tops are readily available to boost compression a bit.

Compression is what makes power. The more you can squeeze that combustion process, the more power you'll make. Don't use FI pistons in a NA engine - you'll be very disappointed.

Cam should be similar - look for something fairly mild. You want something that makes good power off idle, has minimal overlap, and not too much lift. In the olden days, a cam like that was referred to as an "RV Cam". Meaning that it was designed to produce a lot of low end torque, but not spin very high. As always, follow the cam manufacturers recommendation on springs.

For a roller conversion, you'll need a reduced base circle cam for a non-roller cam block. Coast High Performance used to sell a good selection, but I don't see any on their web site. Check with Comp Cams for that.

When picking the right cam, be sure and do the math. Calculate your static and dynamic compression. For static, you probably don't want any more than 9:1'ish. For dynamic, don't go over 8:1.

Dynamic CR


Now, getting all those new parts and the machine work for <$700 is going to be a good trick.

[Don Payne]

I would offer advice, but I have no idea how to build up an engine with that budget.

[David_T]

Thank you for the responses! I'm going to list the pistons I have, and hopefully get some new ones for higher compression at a lower price, since I won't be needing forged. Then I can put money into the heads and a mid level cam and be set. Appreciated!

[Cobra NJ]

Assuming from the budget that you'll be using steel heads, bear in mind that you can't really go over 9.5:1 compression and still survive on pump gas.

The old rule of thumb is 9.5:1 with steel (which holds more heat), 10.5:1 with aluminum heads (which dissipate heat more quickly). Those are the limits for using 93 octane. You can go higher with race fuel, but that is a pain in the butt for a street car, you just can't drive anywhere unless you map out fuel stops in advance.

Overall, your budget provides you with a challenge; how to design a complete motor -- a complete system of compatible parts, not just a collection of cool pieces -- on a really tight budget.

I would expect to spend the entire $700 the small stuff, like fasteners and gaskets and a thermostat and so forth, plus contract labor, like having the block checked for bore taper/alignment.

AJ

[CraigS]

I don't understand your several mentions of higher compression when you are looking for 350 hp. That should be very easy to do w/ 9.5.

[tomh440]

Originally Posted by CraigS

I don't understand your several mentions of higher compression when you are looking for 350 hp. That should be very easy to do w/ 9.5.

I agree. Also why go higher when you will have some pre-detenation issues with regular gas and iron heads.

[David_T]

My apologies...

I have the gaskets, roller conversion kit, pistons, etc... I could rebuild the motor right now with all of the parts (minus a retrofit cam for the roller kit) I was looking if I sold what I have and upgraded a bit. That's probably difficult to tell over the internet, so let's just forget the pricing part. Just know I want to get it done and budget is important to me right now.

What I was considering to do was just swap the pistons I have for a higher compression piston and pick up the heads and cam better suited to them.

However, it looks like the consensus is that the pistons I have will do fine for what I am looking for, in that case, what heads would you suggest? I currently have the E7's that the car came with.
What cam and head would you go with if you wanted a reliable run about with some zip?


To be honest... I know just enough about this to both; feel comfortable standing in on a discussion at a cocktail party and also to get myself in real trouble in the garage, that's why I am seeking the education.

Again, thank you!

[CraigS]

My 351/400hp engine from the Engine Factory in 05 has Edelbrock Performer RPM heads and intake. I am happy w/ them. It has a mild cam and can be driven at 1300 in 5th which is 50mph w/ my 308 rear gear.

[ddv005]

Originally Posted by David_T

My apologies...

I have the gaskets, roller conversion kit, pistons, etc... I could rebuild the motor right now with all of the parts (minus a retrofit cam for the roller kit) I was looking if I sold what I have and upgraded a bit. That's probably difficult to tell over the internet, so let's just forget the pricing part. Just know I want to get it done and budget is important to me right now.

What I was considering to do was just swap the pistons I have for a higher compression piston and pick up the heads and cam better suited to them.

However, it looks like the consensus is that the pistons I have will do fine for what I am looking for, in that case, what heads would you suggest? I currently have the E7's that the car came with.
What cam and head would you go with if you wanted a reliable run about with some zip?


To be honest... I know just enough about this to both; feel comfortable standing in on a discussion at a cocktail party and also to get myself in real trouble in the garage, that's why I am seeking the education.

Again, thank you!

Easiest and cheapest way is to rebuild your motor with factory stuff (new rings, bearings, etc..) and just get a set of cheapo Chinese heads. You are not gonna get a set of heads new for less that $600-$800 . You may be able to pickup a set of used heads for less but you may have to rebuild, etc...

Get a set of Procomp heads with at least a 190 cc chamber and 2.1 valves

get an FMS E303 or TFS Stage I off the shelf cam. Cheapest way to make reliable, proven power.

[Cobra NJ]

You mentioned that your heads are E7. If they are E7TEs, those are considered to be the best of all the production Ford small block Windsor heads. If I were building on a budget, I would consider doing a mild porting job on them myself and using those heads, maybe after taking them in for a fresh 3 angle valve job.

AJ

[David_T]

Cobra:

They are the 37TE.

I got a quote on a mild port for them, approx. $700. Which is right in my range.


However, I notice that I can buy new aluminum ones for about the same price. What benefits would I see by going for either option? Wouldn't it be better to just get some aluminum ones at the same price?

aluminum 351w heads: compare prices and read reviews - Bing Shopping

[CraigS]

I clicked on about 5 of the ones in your link and they all came up saying 'sorry this item appears to be one of a kind' so those prices must be for one head.

[tirod]

An extra $700 for porting stock heads? This project is morphing rapidly.

The original parameters of a $700 rebuild and 350hp don't seem to apply any longer. Since it's a moving target, might as well bring up the subject of just using a stroker kit and going 408.

Add heads from somebody like this: Small Block Ford Cylinder Heads by Trick flow, Total engine airflow

Bing searches empty pages as much as vendors with actual stock. Lots of web sellers aren't actual players, they just bundle up an order over 6-8 weeks of taking money, then tell you when the product will ship 3-6 months from now.

I'm into my 8th month of researching a 351W build, and it follows - speed costs money. I'd say double the cost to reach 1hp per cubic inch, and double the cost to add another 100hp.

It takes at least $1200 to install a rebuilt motor, $1800 to buy one outright ready to go, $3-5000 to equip one to the 400-450 hp range. Crate 500hp motors cost $8-10,000 dollars. $700 really limits the effort to freshening up the top side and adding a manifold and camshaft.

If anything is done to the heads, hogging out the ports and reducing mid lift velocity is the real danger. Better to get a 5 - five - angle valve job with 30 degree seats, and unshroud the intake inside the combustion chamber.

More research into an intake and cam would be productive and money better spent than for porting stock heads.

[Bob Cowan]

Originally Posted by David_T

Cobra:

They are the 37TE.

I got a quote on a mild port for them, approx. $700. Which is right in my range.


However, I notice that I can buy new aluminum ones for about the same price. What benefits would I see by going for either option? Wouldn't it be better to just get some aluminum ones at the same price?

aluminum 351w heads: compare prices and read reviews - Bing Shopping

Spending big bux on porting for stock heads isn't really worth it, unless you're racing in a class that requires iron heads. Get a port and polish kit from Summit Racing or Jegs and do the work yourself. You'll just do a general port clean up and chamber polish, not a full port job.

A good (not radical) set of alum heads will do more than anything to else to make good power. Power is often limited by air flow, so improving that flow will increase power. You can also get them in different chamber sizes, so you can adjust your static and dynamic compression.

Be very careful about selection, though. The heads have to match the rest of the parts, and your goals. For example, a set of top of the line Brodix monster heads will make your engine run like a dog.

I would also not recommend a set of cheap chinese knock off heads. You get what you pay for here. Cheap parts can get very expensive.

My favorite bang for the buck is Dart. Top quality heads, make good power, quality components, and relatively low price. Dart Machinery - Cylinder Heads, Engine Blocks and More...

Originally Posted by CraigS

I clicked on about 5 of the ones in your link and they all came up saying 'sorry this item appears to be one of a kind' so those prices must be for one head.

That's because a lot of them are on e-bay. once the "auction" is over, the ad disappears from e-bay but persists on places like Bing.

[turbonut48]

Go stock on the engine. Iron heads stock type cam, lifters , maybe an aluminum intake, a modest sized carb.
Stay under 9.5 compression. Gas isnt going to get better or cheaper.
That size engine has a LOT of torque. Thats what pulls you on the street , and makes highway driving easier.

Good Luck.

The Nut

[David_T]

"An extra $700 for porting stock heads? This project is morphing rapidly."

Well, I figured I already have pistons that I can sell/swap and everything else I need. I could, potentially, put the engine together as it is and have it run stock at about 225 HP. It's more of a, where can I put $700 to make this car more of what I am looking for, rather than how do I take it from a bare block into a 300ish HP car.

That's more or less where I am coming from on it. I don't know if that is possible without an entire rebuild though. I just didn't know if anyone knew of some good heads to throw onto the pistons I do have and then I'd just need to swap out the cam if I needed to to bump it up to that level of HP and I could sell the parts I have to help cover costs and call it good.