Hello, this my first post but have been following you guys on this forum for 2 years. I am getting closer to ordering a MK4, my wife and I flew out to the open house this summer from Minnesota to look over the cars and happen to get a ride in Dave's Cobra with the Coyote Boss engine. So far I am set on the Coyote engine and the IRS rear suspension. I have been undecided about getting the complete kit or the base kit then getting the options from a vender like Breeze or Forte's. Now I see that FF has a sale going on offering 50% off any of their upgraded options except the IRS Completion Kit which is still $3700.00. Mike Forte is going to give me a call next week to discuss options but would appreciate any options.
Thanks Dan
Hey Dan. I know how excited you must be...take a deep breath. If you have been hanging out here for a couple years, I know you have read - no make that preach about a build plan. If you have one, it will most certainly answer your question.
Start with a build statement - spell out how you intend to use the car, how and how much you will drive it, what expectations you have, comparisons, overall style, etc. Then list all the options, mods, upgrades and specific items you want as part of your build. You should be able to look at your plan and figure out which path (complete or base) is best for you.
As for my personal take, here you go. The base kit is best for a low budget or high end car; the complete kit is best for a middle of the road build. So if you are planning on less than $25k or more than $40-$45k go base; If your want a $30-$40K car, go complete kit. As for my reasoning, well, the base kit was designed for a donor build, this keeps the costs down. This route will get in a car for less money, by using some refurb or rebuilt parts. A typical complete kit build ($20k kit, $8-10k for engine/trans/rear end, $5k for paint). Sticking to the formula will give you a nice car. A high end car is likely to have more upgrades or use specific parts. If you want monster breaks, upgrade to billet control arms, specific radiator, upgrade to a different fuel tank, specific fuel pumps, etc. - then you want to look are you better off sourcing your own parts. Yes, you can sell off the parts you upgrade, but you have to decide how much you can get and your effort to sell them.
I am sure others have differing thoughts, but how I break it down. Decide if you are going for a budget build, a middle of the road - straight forward car, or a higher end, customized car. All 3 are really nice, it is about making sure the car meets your expectations. Layout your plan, decide which budget range your plan is going to put you in, then if in the higher end, look at what parts you are going to upgrade from the base kit and see if you want to source all the parts or sell off the couple parts you are upgrading.
I'm just a few weeks ahead of where you are now. My kit is supposed to be completed next weekend. Then I just have to wait for Stewart to pick it up and bring it to me.
Four words... build what you want.
I saw you were going with the Coyote and the IRS. This is the same thing I'm going with for engine and rear end. Most guys like the Coyote. I haven't heard anything bad, other than a rep at F5 wondering why someone wouldn't want to keep it more "period correct."
You're going to have to convince yourself you want the IRS, because no one else will. On three occasions a F5 rep tried to sell me on the 3-link instead, but this was all in the middle of the current dilema with the rear axles falling out so I don't know if that played a factor.
Basically I had it explained to me in these ways:
There are far fewer stories about someone going from IRS to 3-link, than the other way.
There are no stories I know of that someone went back to manual steering from power steering.
There aren't any stories of someone pulling a Coyote and putting in something less sophisticated (granted there are only a handful of Coyotes running so far, but a lot in the works)
I'm working with Mike Forte, for the "completion kit" also. His prices are the most reasonable, and he's really helpful if you have questions.
As far as the actual build plan, PM me and I'll email you a copy of my excel spreadsheet I'm using to track all my parts.
Another option is to look at completed cars for sale. This will help you see what you want to achieve. I myself was on the fence about building. I happened to find one completed with no miles on it back in 2006 done pretty much the way I would have built myself. This allowed me to fill my need of getting behind the wheel, yet yearly make small upgrades to improve and yet enjoy the car. With the help of many vendors and forum members here, there is the great ability to keep your wallet empty. Good luck with building. And welcome to a fellow Minnesotan.
I bought and built mine before there was a "complete" kit offered. From my perspective the base kit gives you the opportunity to make more choices, but the complete kit gives you basically all the parts you need to start building. No waiting on parts to arrive from UPS!
Good luck!
__________________
Bob
Everybody is entitled to my opinion!
Non-donor MK II, FFR-5163K, Ford Racing 302, Tremec, Team III Wheels, Red w/Silver Stripes.
If I had to do it again, I would probably go with a base kit and one of Breeze's master packs. (or masterpack minus powertrain)
Mike Fortes is also a great guy and first rate supplier / source of information and assistance if you need it. Either one would be a great way to go.
With Breeze, everything I got from them was marked, labeled, and came with clear instrucions, it just made things easier.
__________________
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. -- Heinlein again.
If I had to do it again, I would probably go with a base kit and one of Breeze's master packs. (or masterpack minus powertrain)
Mike Fortes is also a great guy and first rate supplier / source of information and assistance if you need it. Either one would be a great way to go.
With Breeze, everything I got from them was marked, labeled, and came with clear instrucions, it just made things easier.
X2 on this.
__________________
FFR 7386 MK IV Roadster
302 Block/347 Stroker/Mass-Flo/TKO 500/8.8 Moser Rear/Manual Brakes & Steering
Build Began 12/6/2010
First Start 11/18/2011
Go Kart 11/24/2011
Registered and on the Road 8/11/2012
Paint Winter-2012 at Metalmorphous
Picked up from Paint 4/6/2013. Awaiting graduation pics to make it official! My Build Project Website
Back when I built my Mk3 there were no complete kits and I got everything else from Mike Forte. I wanted IRS and a 351 so Mike built me a package. From what I remember it was about as much as the kit was but it had everything else I needed to build the car.
Thanks everyone for the advice, the car will be used for joy rides no racing in the picture. I am fairly mechanical having spend 4 years and 4000 hours building a composite airplane "Lancair". Just finished building a 22x40 climate controlled shop to enjoy the build..I will be giving Breeze a call next week also, I called last week and talked to his wife some, didn't sound like they have options to sell the Coyote engine. Can anyone tell me if the quality of either Breeze or Forte's suspension parts, brakes and IRS are better or much differennt than ordering the complete kit from with upgraded brakes from FF?
Dan
Back when I built my Coupe (2003) FFR did not offer a complete kit. I bought number of items for my build from the Forum vendors, Breeze, Richard Oben (North race cars), Mike (Fortes Parts), VPM , Cobra Earl etc. and found everything fit and worked fine. I would not hesitate to recommend the forum vendors if you want to go that way.
HTH
CB
I have a base kit. I had a build plan that I had worked on for years. Don't be suprised if your build changes a bit along the way. I was going to use a donor, but that changed. I had a self imposed budget so I decided to go over it. If you have a real budget, stick to it as much as you can. I have ordered some additional components from FFR and am sourcing others from vendors and Summit, etc. I am still going to come out cheaper than the complete kit considering some of the upgrades that I am doing. I will be in for several thousand $ over a donor build, but decided it was worth it. Espiciallyin the long run.
As far as engine goes, do what you want. If modern quite(er) FI, multi cam turns you on, do it. If old school carb, lumpy cam and loud is your thing, do that.
Rear suspension, again you may have something that floats your boat. If so, fine. This discussion is closer to religon than anything else around here. I think the perceived cool factor sells IRS more then anything. The other is comfort of the ride. IRS is and always has been the more problematic one. Some people think the IRS is the high performance suspension because that is what more modern cars use. According to FFR it is not. The performance suspension is the 3 link. IRS is the comfort suspension. Make sure you are getting the right one for how you are going to use the car or your budget, whichever is the major factor. Talk to several FFR people, and read all you can. I lost a nights sleep over it just before my order. I am happy with my decision now.
Get any upgrades in place that replace existing parts. Chrome roll bar, stainless pipes, etc.
If you have your engine type and rear suspension figured out, sleep well. Everything else is an easy adjustment.
PS. I still think about MK IV decisions as I drift off to sleep...dash layout, color, etc.......
__________________
MKIV Roadster....FFR7694
3-link Moser, Wilwood brakes, 347, TKO
you are POSITIVELY on the right track…. FFR open house, SUPPORTING WIFE, going for a ride in Dave's car, and speaking with Mike Forte for all of your "pahts" and performance needs.
gonna be a modern monster with a Coyote and IRS!
my only advice for you is don't skimp on the tires. spend a few hundred extra bucks on Nitto's or something that won't easily break loose when shifting into 2nd. you and the wife will be safer.
I'm just a few weeks ahead of where you are now. My kit is supposed to be completed next weekend. Then I just have to wait for Stewart to pick it up and bring it to me.
Four words... build what you want.
I saw you were going with the Coyote and the IRS. This is the same thing I'm going with for engine and rear end. Most guys like the Coyote. I haven't heard anything bad, other than a rep at F5 wondering why someone wouldn't want to keep it more "period correct."
You're going to have to convince yourself you want the IRS, because no one else will. On three occasions a F5 rep tried to sell me on the 3-link instead, but this was all in the middle of the current dilema with the rear axles falling out so I don't know if that played a factor.
Basically I had it explained to me in these ways:
There are far fewer stories about someone going from IRS to 3-link, than the other way.
There are no stories I know of that someone went back to manual steering from power steering.
There aren't any stories of someone pulling a Coyote and putting in something less sophisticated (granted there are only a handful of Coyotes running so far, but a lot in the works)
I'm working with Mike Forte, for the "completion kit" also. His prices are the most reasonable, and he's really helpful if you have questions.
As far as the actual build plan, PM me and I'll email you a copy of my excel spreadsheet I'm using to track all my parts.
Good luck!
*I did. I've had (all) three different types of steering set ups;
1) De-powered manual (the worst of the 3, IMHO)
2) Powered manual (both with & w/o cut-spring mod to change the 'amount' of power)
3) True Manual rack (Flaming River 18:1)
I do not see me going back to power steering in a 2,300 lb roadster.
Just my personal experience.
And after 6 years with my Mark 3, if there were any 'do-overs', I'd splurge for the IRS AND pin-drive!
Thanks,
Will
__________________
FFR MK III picked up 9/24/05 Roller 9/28/05 First start & go-cart 11/28/05 red w/white stripes PC Chassis, heat/defrost, PS Eng 15's, footbox vents, radio delete, Breeze headrest, dual quad 427W, rebuilt T5, 4 link w/3.27's, Koni's all around, Gen 1 rag top, snapless tonneau, Herb's door panels, NRC rear discs, paint by Gino's in Rowley, MA
2011 ffcars.com calendar Cover Car
Yes, that's me in the avatar with Dave Smith in front of my roadster at the '06 F5R Open House!
Dan, I believe I spoke with you at the open house about the IRS ( I remember you telling me you built your own plane). I am glad I sold you on IRS, you won't be disappointed. As far as venders go, all those mentioned above are of high quality and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase from any of them. Don't be afraid to ask a question on this forum, you will get instant input from knowledgeable individuals who are passionate about building and driving these incredible machines. During the build, just remember to enjoy the ride as much as the destination.
Sean
don't forget, as far as Mike Forte's prices, if you see something on Summit, he can usually get it for the same price and have it shipped to your home.
I do remember you showing me the IRS at the open house, your explanation of the different rear ends was very helpful. I got an email from Forte tonight, he is going to send me some options tomorrow. What gear ratio would be recommended for a coyote engine and a tremex 600?
Dan
I like 3.55 rear end with the TKO600 TCET5008 that has 2.87 first gear and .64 5th gear. This makes 1st gear very usable and 5th gear is a good cruising gear for highway use......I think this will give you a great cruising car for the street. If you want to get the most from that awesome engine (they like the higher RPM) under race conditions I would stick with the 3.55 rear gear set and opt for the TKO600 TCET4617 that has the .82 5th gear (not really street friendly but a heck of a ride for the road course)
Sean
I like 3.55 rear end with the TKO600 TCET5008 that has 2.87 first gear and .64 5th gear. This makes 1st gear very usable and 5th gear is a good cruising gear for highway use......I think this will give you a great cruising car for the street. If you want to get the most from that awesome engine (they like the higher RPM) under race conditions I would stick with the 3.55 rear gear set and opt for the TKO600 TCET4617 that has the .82 5th gear (not really street friendly but a heck of a ride for the road course)
Sean
8500+RPM seems a little high for the Coyote. I thought the rev limit was around 7300RPM?
With all of the "newness" and trial and error associated with the Coyote, we need a sub-forum for all of the Coyote-specific stuff.
If I had to do it again, I would probably go with a base kit and one of Breeze's master packs. (or masterpack minus powertrain)
Mike Fortes is also a great guy and first rate supplier / source of information and assistance if you need it. Either one would be a great way to go.
With Breeze, everything I got from them was marked, labeled, and came with clear instrucions, it just made things easier.
X3 - My kit was a little different and yes it is a complete kit but if I ever do it again it will be a base kit supporting forum vendors. My personal favorite is Mark at Breeze, with well thought out parts and thorough instructions.
As others have suggested think about what you want out of the car and then analyze what others have done and what you like and don't like/care for. Your ideas will change during the build no matter how well thought out your build plan is but you will make different decisions based on your own experiences.
Good luck and keep us updated on your order and don't forget to take those famous delivery day pictures. Ahh, those are fond memories...
Bob
p.s Also, check out Nice Guy Eddie's 101 build tips.
To me it seems that the Coyote motor requires a lot of extra fit fabbing for extra horse power you probably wont use. I have a stock 302 bottom end with heads, cam, ported Explorer upper and lower I am at about 300 hp. I beat the crap out of my car, thats why I built it, rarely does the tach reach or pass 6000 rpm. My setup with 355 rear gears can scare the bejesus out of anyone who goes for a ride with me. I am competitive in AutoX with R compound tires and run upper 12's in the quarter at 108 mph. I also have a 6psi supercharger that I disconnected because I am working on my EFI tune so it runs properly bu,t realistically it will only benefit me in my 1/4 mile runs. The way I look at it I am at 60 mph in 2nd in about 4 sec how much faster do you need to go on the street. Speed and pwer cost $$ AND can also cost you more than $$ on the street, these cars stand out.
Since a $$ power train is in your budget I would go with a 4.6L super charged terminator if you really feel you need 400+hp. It will drop right in and I believe the headers will also bolt right up.
__________________
Donor $2,500 -Kit $18,000 -Extra "needs stuff" $100's -$1,000's
300+hp tagged race car PRICELESS !! Best ET 12.898 @ 108.37 N/A
Completed: Passed PA Insp 3/19/12 Tagged 4/14/12
Mk III #5294 -Purchased 1/08,302 T5, 3-link, 3.55 posi, 13" Cobra brakes, SAI, twEECer R/T, BE & EEC Analyzer YouTube Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/joeembery#p/u
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