Fuel lines does this look ok?

[luey2009]

I ran my 3/8" fuel lines this morning. do you guys think this a safe routing?. Im running a mechanical pump, with no return line. -thanks Andy
Fuel line routing - a set on Flickr

[CCRsAC]

Looks good - it won't interfere with any other parts, will it? For example, were you planning on using the Breeze battery box that mounts in the front of the engine bay?

[Cobra NJ]

Some would say no, because the line is outboard on the chassis and in a severe side impact it might be vulnerable.

But I did it just like you did. The only alternatives are to run it over the rear crossmember and therefore expose it to the passenger compartment (uh, no thanks), under the rear crossmember (visualize a fireball the first time you find a speedbump) or drilling through the crossmember and feeding it through, or possibly putting in a joint in the line.

End of the day, none of these options sounded good to me and I did almost exactly what you did. However, I crossed over at the rear bulkhead instead of the front crossmember, because I thought it was more visually appealing, but that's just me. I ran my lines outside the driver's side chassis tube. It was hard to fit and install, but I see you have not mounted your rear suspension yet so it is possible.

AJ

[mirose]

I did braided Stainless flexible teflon lines from fuel pump to engine and back and did almost the exact same routing....I think its just fine the way you did it. Here are a few pics. the last one shows where the fuel filter ended up...its under the driver's seat along the 4" rail. Easy to access and service plus its far away from the heat of the engine compartment. The lower line is the return line. These pics are from a long time ago...the routing is the same but more clamps are in place now and the routing is complete...but this is what I could find on my photo bucket acct.

[luey2009]

Thanks for the replies guys. I have not installed my rear suspension yet, but I think I should be ok.

[josrodes]

I would be a little concern about the jpipes, I did some twisting in mine to route it after the passenger footbox over to the other side on the rail from there to the cross member. Although it was tricky I think it will be litter safer there. I will post a pic later.

[Bret Watkins]

Just wondering if you fuel lines installed the teflon lines? The new E-85 will break down the standard rubber lines in 18 months or so. We pulled all of our out and reinstalled with the lined ones. Only wanted to do it once. OK twice.

Bret Watkins
3.1 347 6sp

[mirose]

Originally Posted by Bret Watkins

Just wondering if you fuel lines installed the teflon lines? The new E-85 will break down the standard rubber lines in 18 months or so. We pulled all of our out and reinstalled with the lined ones. Only wanted to do it once. OK twice.

Bret Watkins
3.1 347 6sp

Bret: the Braided Line pictures are above are MINE, not the O.P.'s Yes they are teflon. The O.P. has hard lines.


I am not the original poster, but I see your point that compared to some of the super-clean builds that are paraded on this site, this fuel-line run is not going to win any awards. That being said, It will be functional, and unseen since its under the car so it doesn't matter. The O.P. has been asking tons of questions on the site and has recently started his build. I am not sure that there is any value making this kind of comment unless you see a safety issue because if he feels that people are going to comment on the aesthetics of his work he might shy away from asking important questions, and that could be bad. Just my 2c.

[Richard Oben]

The question was is it safe, looks like it will not be hit by anything, looks safe.

To belittle a guy who is just getting started is not cool. Unless you are 3.5 inches tall no one will ever see the fuel line. In my opinion some of his transitions are better than the anal retentive stuff as the bends are fewer and less severe resulting in better flow. JMHO, YMMV, Richard.

[JKleiner]

Originally Posted by Richard Oben

To belittle a guy who is just getting started is not cool.

Richard, you and I have both been around long enough to know that about the only time some members post is to grumble about the quality of vendors &/or manufacturers products or to critique other builder's work. It doesn't take long to sort them out, and ironically they seem to rarely, if ever, show us their work. Just sayin'...

Carry on Andy!

Jeff

[frankeeski]

Originally Posted by Richard Oben

The question was is it safe, looks like it will not be hit by anything, looks safe.

To belittle a guy who is just getting started is not cool. Unless you are 3.5 inches tall no one will ever see the fuel line. In my opinion some of his transitions are better than the anal retentive stuff as the bends are fewer and less severe resulting in better flow. JMHO, YMMV, Richard.

Originally Posted by JKleiner

Richard, you and I have both been around long enough to know that about the only time some members post is to grumble about the quality of vendors &/or manufacturers products or to critique other builder's work. It doesn't take long to sort them out, and ironically they seem to rarely, if ever, show us their work. Just sayin'...

Carry on Andy!

Jeff

X3, I have to agree with Jeff and Richard. We all build to varying degrees of perfection, some have higher standards then others but belittling a guy because he did it exactly as the build manual illustrates is uncalled for.

[sk8runeg]

Thats just mean man..

How about some pics of your build if its so effortlessly perfect?

Have a little respect and at least go about saying what it is that you are trying to say in a nice manner... Not everyone is a perfectionist, especially when it comes to things that arent even going to be seen..

To the O.P. - Looks fine and out of the way to me. Its your car and as long as you can say "im happy with the way it came out" then thats all that matters. Good luck with your build

[luey2009]

Not worried about that guys comments, but thanks to all for being the good guys!- ok, now I need to know, is flaring that line the only option to connecting it to the flex line to my motor, or can I attach it some other way?-Andy

[bgbadaz]

A. it does look safe.
B. getting the fuel line straight from a coil is a pain in the ass
C. nice looking garage man, very clean!
D. dont let negativity affect your build, have fun with it!
E. if someone offers an opinion... its just that.

the most opinionated people usually speak their mind because they cant show any better in their actions. ive been blasted for a negative comment before, but it was because my opinion was solicited on it, not because i just wanted to offer my two cents. the most important thing is to enjoy the process you have begun, its going to be a fun ride. good luck man.

Bobby

[KRUSTY990]

The fitting needed to go from hardline to flex can be found at Breeze. Call Mark and he will hook you up.

krusty

[MPTech]

Here's mine. Don't forget the fuel filter.

[tirod]

Two pics of lines dropping down to the 4" frame tube and being attached on the outside. Commentary about what is safe, too. Well, there are a lot of race organizations that don't allow them inside the trans tunnel. Something about a driveshaft flailing about when a U joint breaks, or something. Tends to sever them.

Attaching them to one side or the other means drilling holes, and that isn't good on other accounts.

I don't expect a warm reception for this thought, but why not run them inside the frame tube? It's a protected conduit, and there are two. I don't see any interior obstructions in photos or F5 video.

I suppose there are some things to object about it, just as there are for running lines on the outside of the tube. Usually the same requirements need to be met, needing answers.

Just thinking out loud.

[HIRISC]

Originally Posted by Bret Watkins

Just wondering if you fuel lines installed the teflon lines? The new E-85 will break down the standard rubber lines in 18 months or so. We pulled all of our out and reinstalled with the lined ones. Only wanted to do it once. OK twice.

Bret Watkins
3.1 347 6sp

Re Mirose' pics: some 'rubber' lines yes, but, and this has been discussed many times, not all stainless braided line (eg Aeroquip AQP) is subject to degrading under (some) ethanol.

Who is running e-85 in their cars?

To the OP - your runs look good.. same place I ran my stainless braided/carb application. FWIW, my fuel filter is between the mechanical pump and the carb, so no need to un-do what you've done.

[JKleiner]

Originally Posted by tirod

...but why not run them inside the frame tube?

How would you propose securing them inside the tube?

Jeff

[AC Bill]

The manual shows the fuel lines run along the outside of the 4" tube, but tucked up against the floor as much as possible. Luey has it right, according to the instructions.
They are a low risk from a side impact installed there. If they were compromised from an impact at that point, you are already in serious trouble

MP Tech's picture shows them sitting a little low at the rear area. You sure don't want them below the frame tube. I suspect in that picture they were not yet attached, and hope/presume, they were tucked up a little better, when all was said and done?

Tirod, I doubt very much that those small holes drilled in the tubes will compromise them at all. They need to be secure, and I can't see attaching them any other way. I wouldn't for example, trust two sided tape, regardless of how good it is..lol

[MPTech]

AC Bill, yes, they are actually about 1" above the 4" tubes the entire run, the picture angle is deceiving.

[mirose]

Originally Posted by JKleiner

How would you propose securing them inside the tube?

Jeff

Exactly what I was thinking. I know someone (I forget who) was recently posting about running their exhaust down the 4" tubes..but I've never heard of anyone running their fuel lines there. Plus, if there was a leak inside the 4" tube, you wouldnt' see it until it was a pretty big pool of gas...and then I think you can call your 4" tube a "pipe bomb". Not my idea of fun. - Michael

[tirod]

It likely won't involve drilling holes down the length of the frame tube.

Searched online and found a web page where a 240Z owner was replacing his rusty frame channels, he used pipe insulation on aluminum AN line and inserted them thru.

NASCAR, bikers, cyclists, and street rodders use frame tubes for conduit. We do have to pay attention to vibration, G - forces, etc., but it's done all the time. Engineers have used a frame tube as a coolant line, and the good 'ol boys down South added hidden fittings for gasoline and nitrous, Did it for years before they got caught.

The engineering principle falls under the term, "elegance," making something do more than one job so that the whole becomes more efficient. Entirely the reason why the AC had a transverse front leaf spring that was also the upper a-arm. FI uses the engine and transmission as the frame, just like a tractor does. The front of the motor is literally bolted to the uniframe and it becomes one stressed piece. Lots of ways to do things.

Nobody suggested the ends of the tube were sealed, so fluids leaking out would be readily apparent.

[JKleiner]

If you are worried about half a dozen holes securing fuel line clamps I'm afraid the hundreds of holes used to rivet the aluminum panels to the frame are liable to send you into an apoplectic fit

Jeff

[Frank Messina]

Since you are running a mechanical fuel pump did you look at going down the driver side? You could end your hard line right on the long 4" tube right next to the pump on the engine and then connect to the pump with a short piece of flex line. Just curious, I think what you have now will work fine too.
Frank

[mirose]

Originally Posted by tirod

It likely won't involve drilling holes down the length of the frame tube.

Searched online and found a web page where a 240Z owner was replacing his rusty frame channels, he used pipe insulation on aluminum AN line and inserted them thru.

NASCAR, bikers, cyclists, and street rodders use frame tubes for conduit. We do have to pay attention to vibration, G - forces, etc., but it's done all the time. Engineers have used a frame tube as a coolant line, and the good 'ol boys down South added hidden fittings for gasoline and nitrous, Did it for years before they got caught.

The engineering principle falls under the term, "elegance," making something do more than one job so that the whole becomes more efficient. Entirely the reason why the AC had a transverse front leaf spring that was also the upper a-arm. FI uses the engine and transmission as the frame, just like a tractor does. The front of the motor is literally bolted to the uniframe and it becomes one stressed piece. Lots of ways to do things.

Nobody suggested the ends of the tube were sealed, so fluids leaking out would be readily apparent.

I don't think anyone, including me didn't think it was possible to engineer a way to get the fuel line into the 4" tube. I agree it would be very "elegant"!!! I just think that suggesting that to a guy who is just starting his build and is clearly asking questions that demonstrate that he wants to keep things as simple and safe as possible is just uneccesary. Your examples include a rusty 240Z, NASCAR, "good Ol' boys" cars, and FI. I hardly think that this limited real-world experience with "elegant" engineering should be translated into an idea for Andy's fuel line routing. Especially since no one else has done it and there is no template to follow. Also, at least now in the MKIV's the tubes are sealed on both ends. You were worried about making holes for 1/8th inch rivets or screws to hold the lines outside the tube....You would have to drill through the ends of the 4" tubes to make a way for the fuel to get in, and out. And also would have to have some "drain" holes along the way to make the "fluids leaking out...readily apparent" which was your prescription for safety, not mine.

I think your answer shows creativity of thought, but isn't really the right answer for this particular "mission". Thats all. The forums are great for this kind of banter. And I am sorry, Andy for the side-Jack here, but I have enjoyed chatting with tirod about this. Thanks for letting us each get our thoughts and ideas out there. - Michael

[Joe]

I don't know how to really put it into words, but making an outside the box recommendation to a new builder is one thing. But making an outside the box recommendation that not YOU or any other known person with an FFR has ever tried, just doesn't seem right..

The fuel lines look fine Luey.. Move on to the next part of the build!!

[tirod]

The issue isn't whether the OP did anything morally wrong. Plenty of you added pictures of similar installations, it works.

What many of you are forgetting is that every thread is an archive of information, and that in the years to come, someone else will want to know various ways to get the same job done. A "new" builder doesn't necessarily have the same skills, nor is he limited to how it's been done before. If that were a necessity, there would be no innovation or creativity at all. And Carroll Shelby would have stuck to retirement.

Car builders are a diverse lot. They cut and chop bodies, modify frames, and do things many of you have said were something to emulate. I don't remember reading posts about "Why don't you leave that alone and just do it like I did?" I made a suggestion available to those who might like to know, who might be researching in advance with a desire to do something different - or meet a serious need. Other motorsports have run loom, lines, coolant, and other things inside frame tubes for decades. If that knowledge is anathema here, I might suggest it's because of an extremely limited perspective.

The top ten percent in racing innovate - like Carroll. The rest copy the leaders and fill in as back markers.

Where do you want to be, in the lead, or a back marker?

[HIRISC]

Originally Posted by tirod

...If that knowledge is anathema here, I might suggest it's because of an extremely limited perspective. The top ten percent in racing innovate - like Carroll. The rest copy the leaders and fill in as back markers. Where do you want to be, in the lead, or a back marker?

Most people building these cars do it for fun, ie as a hobby, not as a profession.

There is a point of diminishing returns on virtually every build element. In an effort to save time, most opt to follow the road most traveled as it pertains to fuel line routing.

Don't chalk it up to lack of intelligence, aptitude, or initiative...Some of us simply have other things to do.