Alignment

[Dr Stebo]

Well so far I have put front bushings from Mark at Breeze in my lower control arms to free up suspension. I installed his offset bushings and raise my rack centering it being pretty happy with results. I also ordered a new bump steer kit with longer adjusting sleeves. My thread penetration before was nowhere near enough for my comfort level. I have pretty well eyeballed it as straight as possible and it tracks down the road great.

My question is do I need to reset and check all alignment settings or will just getting toe correct be enough? I never messed with caster and camber settings since I had it done back a few years ago. I know toe has to be done for sure. Is an alignment done by myself as good as having a shop do? I have searched here and see so many opinions. I have a very flat and real close to level floor to do it on. My problem is I only have 1 shop within 30 miles that has a pit to do this low ride height car in. All other shops clearance will be an issue. Last time I had it done I had to use a different set of wheels because his equipment couldn't grab my wheel edges. Maybe he has updated by now? I no longer have access to those wheels. Any ideas, help, or comments?

[ROADRACER83]

Originally Posted by Dr Stebo

Well so far I have put front bushings from Mark at Breeze in my lower control arms to free up suspension. I installed his offset bushings and raise my rack centering it being pretty happy with results. I also ordered a new bump steer kit with longer adjusting sleeves. My thread penetration before was nowhere near enough for my comfort level. I have pretty well eyeballed it as straight as possible and it tracks down the road great.

My question is do I need to reset and check all alignment settings or will just getting toe correct be enough? I never messed with caster and camber settings since I had it done back a few years ago. I know toe has to be done for sure. Is an alignment done by myself as good as having a shop do? I have searched here and see so many opinions. I have a very flat and real close to level floor to do it on. My problem is I only have 1 shop within 30 miles that has a pit to do this low ride height car in. All other shops clearance will be an issue. Last time I had it done I had to use a different set of wheels because his equipment couldn't grab my wheel edges. Maybe he has updated by now? I no longer have access to those wheels. Any ideas, help, or comments?

Dr:

I would say you need to re-align every once in awhile to make sure nothing has changed. Springs sag, and parts wear. Most alignment racks are not FFR friendly.

Get a Sears digital level and do it all yourself. It has a laser hot dot to center and align the rear end with the frame and front suspension, and a 1/10th degree accurate angle readout. You can do caster, camber, toe, thrust angle, camber gain and bump steer with one of these and a few 2 foot pieces of aluminum or steel angle, a ruler, a pencil, a calculator, some 1 X 1 foot leveling pads for the wheels made of thin plywood, and some bungy cords. I don't have time today to do a whole write up on how to do it, but if anyone wants to know how do to it, call me this evening after 5:00 PM Pacific Time and I can explain it easily. I'll try to get a little instruction thread with pictures made up this coming week on how to do this.

http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-1...p-00948292000P

Ron McDuffie
206/618-6010

[buildit]

I wanted to do the same thing with my Craftsman level, but I just couldn't get it figured out so it would work.

A little instruction post would be great!!

Thanks, Ron!!!!

[JoeE]

A friend/member had one of these we did mine in a few hours, it doesn't do toe we did that with strings

Fasttrax Camber/Caster Gauge

[Bob Cowan]

Changing all of those things has changed your caster, camber, and toe. You'll need to go through and adjust everything again.

There are a lot of ways you can do this, and you can even use a smart phone. But, there is no replacement for the proper tools. You'll need to adjust things by 0.25*. That's a pretty fine adjustment. And, you need to be able to make that same measurement exactly the same every time. A standard carpenters level just isn't accurate or consistant enough to get it right every time. If you're going to do this job yourself, spend the money and buy the tools. It will eventually save you a bunch of time and money anyway.

I bought a Fastrax with the toe bars, and it's very accurate and repeatable. It has paid for itself many times over.

If your floor is fairly level, you can use it. Cut some 12" squares from 1/4" plywood. I use a long piece of heavy wall steel tubing and a digital level to get each corner level.

For toe plates, I use four 12x12" pieces of 1/8" alum plate, with grease between them. Works perfectly.

[Dr Stebo]

Originally Posted by Bob Cowan

Changing all of those things has changed your caster, camber, and toe. You'll need to go through and adjust everything again.

There are a lot of ways you can do this, and you can even use a smart phone. But, there is no replacement for the proper tools. You'll need to adjust things by 0.25*. That's a pretty fine adjustment. And, you need to be able to make that same measurement exactly the same every time. A standard carpenters level just isn't accurate or consistant enough to get it right every time. If you're going to do this job yourself, spend the money and buy the tools. It will eventually save you a bunch of time and money anyway.

I bought a Fastrax with the toe bars, and it's very accurate and repeatable. It has paid for itself many times over.

If your floor is fairly level, you can use it. Cut some 12" squares from 1/4" plywood. I use a long piece of heavy wall steel tubing and a digital level to get each corner level.

For toe plates, I use four 12x12" pieces of 1/8" alum plate, with grease between them. Works perfectly.

I have seen the fastrax with toe bar option. Question is does it come with some sort of toe bar for opposite side or does a person need to buy 2 of the tools?

[ROADRACER83]

Toe, either in or out, can be measured with two tape measures and two straight edges about 28 inches in length. Two people can do it or one person can if you tape or bungy cord the straight edges to the outside of the tire. Center the straight edges and Lay them parallel to the ground on the outside of the tires as high up as you can to get the tape under any parts of the chassis and engine so the tape goes straight to the other straight edge. Since the tires have about a 27 inch diameter, measure from near the ends of the straight edges. The difference between the two measurements is the toe. A smaller measurement in the front is toe in and a smaller measurement in the rear is toe out. Adjust the tie rod links to move the front of the tires in and out. Until you do a proper alignment to center the wheels to the frame, you should do the toe in last. This is also the way to center the steering wheel. You may need to adjust one tie rod link more than the other to center the steering wheel and set the toe in.

First, level the garage floor with a level and a long enough straight edge to reach from the back tire to the front tire position point. A piece of angle iron or anything will work, just make sure it is straight. Mark where the car's tires will sit with some chalk or tape. Pick the highest tire location as your datum point and shim the other points up with thin pieces of 1 X 1 foot plywood. Home Depot has scraps and squares of 1/4,3/8, and 1/2 inch plywood. They just need to be big enough to fit under the tire. Then mark the position so you can come back later and use the same shims to level the floor. Set the car ride height and put enough weight in the car to simulate a driver and average tank of gas. This leveling process is the first step before you can do a good alignment.

The beauty of the Sears digital level is that it has a laser hot spot so you can center the rear tires to the frame and set the camber and toe in if the rear is IRS. Everything needs to be measured from the 4" round tubes so a good accurate yardstick works well with the laser. You can also use the string method. I found a link to a way to use both the Sears level and string to adjust camber and toe in. My car is up on jackstands this week to do some wiring, but as soon as I get it back down, I'll get some pictures. Call me if you need further clairification.

How to.....align your own car.....here's how.....

Ron
206/618-6010

[Scott L]

Originally Posted by Dr Stebo

I have seen the fastrax with toe bar option. Question is does it come with some sort of toe bar for opposite side or does a person need to buy 2 of the tools?

I really like my Fastrax. I have the toe bars. I use a steel level on the other side. This seems to work fine. I think any kind of strong straight edge would work fine. I did buy two short, quality tapes that measure to 1/32".

[bobcat]

I probably seen this some where's-copied someones idea I'm sure (I'm not that clever) I fastened a two ft section of 1 in x 1 in aluminum angle to the base of my fastrac-then I bungy it to one wheel-then I bungy another section of the aluminum angle to the opposite wheel- and use my tape to measure across for the toe. I use that tool alot to tweak fronts and rear irs settings.

Bob

[Bob Cowan]

Originally Posted by Dr Stebo

I have seen the fastrax with toe bar option. Question is does it come with some sort of toe bar for opposite side or does a person need to buy 2 of the tools?

That's one way to do it. Kind of expensive, but it would work.

I hang a piece of All-Thread across the side of the tire so it rests on the side wall. Make sure it rests on the side wall, and not the lettering.

Then I hang two pieces of weighted fishing line from the All-Thread. I tape the ends of the tape measures to the slots on the toe bars, and measure against the fishing line.

It would probably be more accurate to fab a bar that rests on the wheel rim, like the Fastrax tool does. But, so far this is working well. It's easily repeatable.

[Dr Stebo]

Thanks for all the ideas. I will probably do something similar to Ron's posting with string and referencing from the rear wheels since I have a solid axle. I like the idea of getting toe measurements at centerline of wheel rather than toward bottom and off of tires. I also need one of those digital levels anyway.

My floor is pretty flat when checked with a long level but was wondering how critical level at each wheel? Within an 1/8" or does it need to be spot on? Also if I make some sort of turnplates, do I need to raise back wheels same amount? Do folded plastic bags work as good as anything else for ease of turning? Once again thanks everyone for help and ideas

[JoeE]

Originally Posted by Dr Stebo

Do folded plastic bags work as good as anything else for ease of turning?

I haven't tried it yet but I saw a video where the guy used floor tiles and poured table salt in between them it worked for him. A lot less messy than grease and quick clean up..

[ROADRACER83]

Originally Posted by Dr Stebo

Thanks for all the ideas. I will probably do something similar to Ron's posting with string and referencing from the rear wheels since I have a solid axle. I like the idea of getting toe measurements at centerline of wheel rather than toward bottom and off of tires. I also need one of those digital levels anyway.

My floor is pretty flat when checked with a long level but was wondering how critical level at each wheel? Within an 1/8" or does it need to be spot on? Also if I make some sort of turnplates, do I need to raise back wheels same amount? Do folded plastic bags work as good as anything else for ease of turning? Once again thanks everyone for help and ideas

DR: Turnplates can be as simple as two cut up milk carton plastic pieces or a plastic bag under each wheel, with a little oil in between to allow slippage when you turn the steering wheel. A piece of 1/8 masonite will act as a shim on the low corner. Put the turn plates on top of the shim. When the shims and turn plates are that thin then you don't need to worry about the rear tires because there is essentially no angle up to the front wheels.

The normal way toe in is expressed is at the the wheel tread not at the rim. A 1/16 of an inch of toe in at the tread is only about half that at the rim. One way some people get toe in is to spin the tire and hold a sharp object against the tread and scribe a line around the tread, which works OK on race tires which are soft but not well on street tires. The way I described with a 30 inch long piece of straight metal on each side of the car on the outside of the tires allows a more accurate toe in measurement by actually measuring the toe from one tire to the other at the front and rear of each tire near the outside diameter. What it doesn't give you is whether the tires are pointed forward and parallel to the centerline of the car. That's what the string system or the laser pointer can tell you. Longacre makes all kind of expensive chassis set up tools, but you can make the tools yourself and with a digital laser level you have the most accurate angles. The digital level and laser also can be use for other things like pinion angle and transmission angle, windshield angle, leveling the floor, and hanging your wifes pictures on the wall all lined up nice like she wants them to be. What's not to love?

Longacre Racing - Online Catalog: Electronic Wheel Scales, Gauges, Pyrometers, Chassis Setup and More!

Ron

[mirose]

I am following this thread and am wondering if the fastrax (or similar home-done) alignment is sufficient or is it generally recommended that you get a "real" alignment at an alignment shop. Scott (Someday I Suppose) came by last year and did a fastrax alignment and all indications to this point (gelcoat driving only so far...no tags or real distance yet) are that I am very happy with the way the car drives/tracks etc. That being said I was under the impression that you want to find a good alignment place that can work on a custom car such as ours (as opposed to some places that haven't a clue what to do if your car's specs aren't in their "book") to get things in more perfect alignment after you have the car on the road.

Please educate me!! Thanks. - Michael

[emac]

Good thread. I have had a couple of alignments and would like to try more caster, but really dont want to deal with a shop again. The posts in this thread are convincing me to do it myself! Heck, I built the thing...just one more thing to learn.

[Bigtim01]

I have used the Fastrax tool to align my car twice , once without power steering, and the second time with power steering. The car has about 6K miles on it so far. Since I added power steering and increased the castor to 6* this car is a dream to drive, not twitchy like it was without power steering. The tool is very easy to use, checkout the video on U Tube.
HTH
Tim

[emac]

You guys are killing me...Just ordered a Fastrax! With my sons car pulling to the right, wanting to fine tune the roadster, and the general love for tools, I just couldnt stand it any longer. I know, I can do it without the Fastrax, but it just seems like a neat tool to have. A couple of alignments and it pays for itself, right? Good investment.

Another week.....another order.

[JoeE]

Tim also helped me to do mine in his garage and his tool. Worked great set it up form AutoX and knock substantial time off the next event. Car handles great and stays straight all the way up through too fast

Originally Posted by Bigtim01

I have used the Fastrax tool to align my car twice , once without power steering, and the second time with power steering. The car has about 6K miles on it so far. Since I added power steering and increased the castor to 6* this car is a dream to drive, not twitchy like it was without power steering. The tool is very easy to use, checkout the video on U Tube.
HTH
Tim

[Someday I Suppose]

The fastrax is a nice tool, but as said you can use a smart phone or digital angle finder. Camber is simply the degrees that the wheel is leaning in, and caster is the difference in camber with the wheel turned in and turned out 15 or 20 degrees and then multiplied. I think its *1.5 for 15 degree and *2 for 20 degrees.

That said, having a level floor will make life much easier as does having some helping hands. I did mine originally by myself and then recently took it to Mark Daugherty to not only go over alignment but also scale the car and we found some difference between the left and right sides.

One thing that really stuck out to me though is Mark sets the toe last on these cars, and I know he has done more then a couple.

-Scott

[Dave O]

Here is an article I ran across on making your own wheel alignment turn plates. Simple, but effective way of measuring the degrees of turn. The local Home Depot did not haves 1/2" plexiglass, so I am going to try the .220" lexan and see how that works.
Just go to: Make your own turn plates for a front end alignment

[pjdavis]

Hi Dave O,

I just read the same article yesterday - and am picking up the materials today.

Because the only had .220 - thinking that .440 would not be enough to really hold the pivot point and locking pin - I am going to add 3/8 - 1/2 inch smooth plywood on the bottom.

PJ

[Dave O]

I was not satisfied with the results with the plexiglass. Everything seem to be working fine until the bottom plate started rotating when I turned the wheel. Not sure how to keep the bottom plate anchored so only the top plate turns. Perhaps adding plywood to the bottom will help.

[JoeE]

Originally Posted by Dave O

I was not satisfied with the results with the plexiglass. Everything seem to be working fine until the bottom plate started rotating when I turned the wheel. .

Did you have plenty of lubrication in between the plates?

[pjdavis]

Hi Dave,

I used mine today - I mount the bottom plate on 1/2 plywood and counter-sunk the screws. Onside work great - the other is still binding a little thus the tire is turning slightly on it. I may need a shim in between the pates.

PJ

[Dr Stebo]

How to.....align your own car.....here's how.....


Got it done today. I used most of the ideas from above link. I went to sears last night and bought a magnetic digital torpedo level. $35 and then you get $15 off if you apply for a credit card. I would imagine I have plenty of uses for this around the house after. First I checked camber and caster and they were spot on with specs for manual steering. All I had to deal with is toe which was a piece of cake to do. I used to pieces of 4 mil plastic on the floor under tires. My floor is real smooth also so adjustment effort was insignificant. Now all I have to do is wait for it to quit raining so I can run it to my shop and raise it on lift so I can adjust bumpsteer. Thanks everyone for ideas and especially Mark Reynolds who talked me out of a shock purchase right from the beginning unil I got my suspension travel and bump steer issues taken care of first.

[CraigS]

I have done all my alignments on my play cars for years and also done them for a living as a line tech on the latest Hunter machines. One of the things I have learned is that making all the numbers exactly match left to right looks really great on a printout but doesn't mean all that much in real life. Can't tell you how many cars I've aligned to fix a drift, gotten the numbers perfect,still drifted,aligned again to be sure, still drifted. Then I start swapping tires around til it goes straight. Yes, tires have steering characteristics built into them. And tires are not 100% exactly the same, so you can get a tire drift that has nothing to do w/ the alignment. OTOH, I can align a car perfectly, then move something a bit and it still drives the same. My overall point is that we can't duplicate a hunter alignment printout, but we don't need to. The precision we can get doing it ourselves is plenty good.