IRS CV joint popped out

[MPTech]

x2

As for FFR, I have mixed feelings about this. The spacers are a quick easy way to get people in a safe situation. However, I think the right fix is an exchange of complete axles for those that bought assembled axles.

In my opinion, the IRS was a premium upgrade that included the complete axle / CVs, which I was happy to pay for new/assembled parts. I am not happy that I will need to take it back apart and re-assemble it for the quick fix. And even more dis-appointed that I will need to take it apart again and dis-assemble the axles/CVs. (I've also been told this is a nasty job).

Sounds like this was an engineering or manufacturing error and the cost and labor should not be passed along to the customer.
If I had a house built and the door frames were too small for the doors, I'd be really upset if the builder dropped off a pile of lumber (charging me his cost) and said "here, you can fix this yourself". I don't care if it was an Architect, Engineer, or Manufacturing root-cause, it's not correct and is a potential safety issue.
FFR and the manufacturer need to step up on this issue as well. And make it a priority. This has been dragging on for over 3 months and needs to be closed.

I really like FFR and they really stepped up on the recent Shock issue. I think they did a great job there and the follow-up and communications was Great!
Do we need to get ugly to have this properly addressed? (I hope that can be avoided)

[MikeKelly]

Originally Posted by mildlyamused

Mike Kelly-
No you don't!

Obviously, we're having a failure to communicate, or one of us doesn't understand what they're looking at. Let's see if we can figure it out.

Originally Posted by mildlyamused

The hub is just sliding in one direction (outwards so to speak).

The hub doesn't move at all, the spacer moves the outer CV / axle assembly toward the pumpkin.

Originally Posted by mildlyamused

The inside of the hub splined bearing is always in the same contact patch with the shaft splines. If the shaft was being pushed through the hub further i.e. out away from the pumpkin, that would be the case.

What exactly is a "hub splined bearing"??? There's a splined hub pressed into a bearing, and a splined CV axle assembly that goes through the hub. The inner races (plural) of the wheel bearing are captured and tensioned between the hub and the CV. The spacer fits between the inner (toward the pumpkin) inner (toward the center of the shaft) bearing race and the outer face of the CV, moving the CV and splined axle toward the pumpkin. The splined area of the CV / axle assembly does not extend all the way through the hub, it never did. If you don't believe me, loosen that nut and see what effect it has on wheel bearing slop (what you find will make you check that nut more often, lol). For the record, the outer (furthest from the center of the shaft) race (the bearing has a single outer race + two inner races) of the wheel bearing is captured between the outer lip of the spindle and the c-clip.

Originally Posted by mildlyamused

It could not however, due to the fact that it bottoms out in the hub.

The axle / CV assembly never bottomed out against the hub, it bottomed out against the inner race. Now it bottoms out against the spacer (which bottoms out against the inner race).

Originally Posted by mildlyamused

People- you are way over thinking this, and after I took many a measurement upon adding the spacers, and cycling the suspension, this fix hardly makes a difference in respect to where the lobes fall inside the tulips.

Installed per the instructions, it moves the lobes .268" further into the tulip. Agreed, it's not a big move.


Now, please tell me precisely what I do not understand about it. And please use a smiley...

[emac]

Originally Posted by Fred Yarema

Didn't bother to take the boots off - can deffinatly feel the lobes through the boot - about 1/4" inside of the cup (in the sprung position). My track width measured exactly to the 58 7/8" (standard width) as specified (sh*t luck!), which is great as I did not want to screw up the alignment. For the record, mine is number 7449, kit picked up in February 2011 and came with the pre-assembled half shafts. The half shafts were back ordered and didn't arrive until around April

Fred,
I think I would peel back the boot and make sure. I really thought mine were ok, but it was hard to tell where the boot ended and the cup started. Once I peeled back the boot it was like...oh that boot is thick. I was able to get mine off and back on without removing the metal band. I think your car falls under the time that could be affected.

[Fred Yarema]

pretty confident that I could feel the edge of the cup, though. Keep in mind that your track width is 3/4" greater than mine, which means, all things being the same, my bearings are 3/8" further in the cup than your's. Might make your photo look more like the "doesn't apply to you" photo in the FFR recall info.

[emac]

Originally Posted by Fred Yarema

pretty confident that I could feel the edge of the cup, though. Keep in mind that your track width is 3/4" greater than mine, which means, all things being the same, my bearings are 3/8" further in the cup than your's. Might make your photo look more like the "doesn't apply to you" photo in the FFR recall info.

very true.

[Dually]

[QUOTE=mildlyamused;2711052]1st...Dually- the comment about the "spacers limiting contact on the splines in the hub" is well, ridiculous! How do you figure that? I have the hub nuts tightened down on mine and there is 3/4" of splined shaft still sticking out the hub face!

Midlyamused, If you have any of the splined shaft extending beyond the outside of your hub, never mind 3/4", your axle nuts are not seating properly and are not applying crush to the rear bearing assy. Maybe a photo of the outside of the hub with the axle installed but no nut would help My splines are dead even with the outside of the hub surface with the axle fully seated so any spacer is going to subtract spline to hub contact area.

Anyway, best of luck to all that have this problem and it would be good to see factory five step up and apply the right fix. I agree with the fact that those comtemplating this problem chose an option with a significant cost and should be made whole for issues outside their control.

[Steve Stanton]

I received my complete kit this year and am almost complete with the build. I am a bit frustrated with the approach FFR is taking. As a manufacturer, if one of my suppliers messed up they would be on the hook to replace the defective products and I would pass that along to my customers for free. It seems like in this case FFR possibly messed up a spec (therefore unable to go back to the manufacturer) and does not seem to want to pay for the fix themselves. Really not very professional. I agree that the correct fix is to replace the entire shaft so I am disappointed that they have chosen to do this band aid approach. Seems like we need to follow up with Dave and see if they might reconsider. I really do not want to take my car apart at this point since I am not the most knowledgable IRS mechanic. It all sounds very challenging.
Steve

[GloP]

Std width here and I haven't received anything...

[Doug Meldrum]

I never requested it, but received the fix from FFR this week (ya, a month after everyone else's...). I haven't had a problem with my axles being too short in 8000+ miles and haven't worried about it. I lifted the car today to see where I'm actually sitting and its probably on the safe side of borderline. It feels like its about the same as this pic at full droop. Crap I hate to tear it all apart to put a band-aid fix on it and I feel the same as emac and MPTech in their comments as well as others... What to do...

[bcw]

Originally Posted by Doug Meldrum

I never requested it, but received the fix from FFR this week (ya, a month after everyone else's...). I haven't had a problem with my axles being too short in 8000+ miles and haven't worried about it. I lifted the car today to see where I'm actually sitting and its probably on the safe side of borderline. It feels like its about the same as this pic at full droop. Crap I hate to tear it all apart to put a band-aid fix on it and I feel the same as emac and MPTech in their comments as well as others... What to do...

I hear ya Doug. I broke down and spent last Saturday installing mine. I figure I'm rolling the dice to save $700.00. That could end up costing me more in the long run if things blow up. As others have said, 1/4" spacers really doesn't seem enough to correct the issue entirely.

[MikeKelly]

Originally Posted by Doug Meldrum

its probably on the safe side of borderline. It feels like its about the same as this pic at full droop.

Judging by the picture, I would not call that safe and I would not drive the car before installing the shims.

Looks (to me) like it needs the shims + longer axles too.

What's the measurement, disk to disk?

Just curious.


Mike

P.S. - at 8000+ miles, I think you've been really lucky...

[MPTech]

Any updates from FFR on this?

[NAVYDUDE]

I called FFR yesterday, the new axles will be shipped the 1st week in November


Sent from my iPhone using Autoguide

[mcwho]

complete Kit delivered in Aug 2010. I don't like the fix as it leaves more of the splines disengaged.

q1....did any of the shipped kits come with the wider axles, and if so when.

comment: I got the fix kit in Sept 2012, reading the instructions I believe I will buy new half shafts or replace the axles in mine.

btw, are any of the t-bird, or Mk Viii half shafts a correct length?

comment 2 if i take thr rear end apart to replace the axles I will probably opt for the adjusters one of the vendors is selling that i forgot to purchase also.

[mcwho]

Since the IRS was a premium upgrade I don't like the band aid approach either. It will affect my tire clearance if i make the rear track narrower. I am all for talking to Dave as a Group.

[jewels]

I am also upset with the attitude that FF has taken in this matter. It obviously is there mistake not ours, and they seem to be trying to wash there hands of it in the cheapest manner possible. Not a very good showing if they do not want this to follow them around the internet or keep there loyal customers happy.

[CraigS]

Agreed!

[MPTech]

I called FFR a couple weeks ago and the guy was very hesitant to talk much about it (I think it's a sore subject). I was nice and refrained from any argumentative discussion, but I told him I was not happy and didn't consider this "fix" acceptable. He told me I could order replacement axles. Yes I could, but I paid for a premium upgrade that is correctly engineered.

I'm really happy with my kit and think they did a great job overall, but I think they dropped the ball on this one.

I hope FFR does the right thing and ships the corrected / assembled axles.
I'll be happy to send mine back, but really don't want to assemble new ones and simply don't accept the "fix".

[bansheekev]

Originally Posted by MPTech

I called FFR a couple weeks ago and the guy was very hesitant to to much about it (I think it's a sore subject). I was nice and refrained from any argumentative discussion, but I told him I was not happy and didn't consider this "fix" acceptable. He told me I could order replacement axles. Yes I could, but I paid for a premium upgrade that is correctly engineered.

I'm really happy with my kit and think they did a great job overall, but I think they dropped the ball on this one.

I hope FFR does the right thing and ships the corrected / assembled axles.
I'll be happy to send mine back, but really don't want to assemble new ones and simply don't accept the "fix".

For the record, I share MPTech's view on this topic word for word....

[mcwho]

So far I count approximately 35 of us affected by this issue, so far.

ffcars site

mcwho
bansheekev
MPTech
Don Payne
jewels
NAVYDUDE
bcw
Doug Meldrum
GloP
Steve Stanton
Dually
emac
Fred Yarema
kevin12973
MikeKelly
Redfish
2boss
Terrorist Hunter
LuisL
ascott172
EngineOil
cChrisM
Johan76
Thomaswh4


thefactoryfiveforum site

carlewms
Dave O
Bob Cowan
tirod
snakeboost
E-Ticket Ride
Rick Masters
FMJ
BULLITT428
CHOTIS BILL
JeepFlyer

I want to know all the options before I proceed as I am not completely comfortable with the spacer fix that FFR has come up with.

So far these have been discussed:

1. Spacers
2. Replaced center shafts at approx $ 40 each
3. Complete replacement half shafts at approx $ 120 ~ $150 each.

[Jim McGehee]

Today is the first time I've hit this thread. I guess the only guys that are being notified by FFR are those that have complained, or maybe the deliveries in Feb. 2009 are not affected. In any rate, I'm not on the road yet (just recently rough aligned the IRS); so will check to see if I have the same problem this weekend.

Thanks to everyone who posts here to keep us all safe.

[mcwho]

This is for MPTech or anyone else who may have a name of someone at Factory Five who may have the answers to this issue. I havent talked to anyone up there in a while and want to get to the right person.

[Don Payne]

BTW, you forgot my name on that list. But technically Jim settled the issue for me.

Hi Don,

I have been asked by Dave to take over the investigation into your axle length issue from Jason. *******

Thank for your patience,
Jim Schenck
Factory Five Racing

[CraigS]

I should not be on the list as I don't have IRS. I have been following this thread for quite a while though due to being a Lexus tech for 20 yrs. They use the same type inner CV joint on some of their cars so I am quite familiar w/ how it works normally. As I have said before, the rollers should be centered somewhere approximately 50% of the total depth of the housing. As one can imagine that housing gets weaker towards the outer edge, so a 1/4 inch spacer that just barely keeps the axle from falling out of the housing is not a fix. If I were designing this axle, I would use approx 35% as the goal at normal ride height. I define that w/ zero % being fully bottomed toward the center of the car and 100% being the point where it falls apart. On average the axles need to be approximately 1 to 1 1/4 inch longer. I sure hope FFR owns up to this soon.

[mcwho]

Craig S,
Thanks for the comments, I have removed your name and added Don Payne.

I am interested to know what the labor would be to replace just the shaft between the two CV joints. Is it something that can be done by a builder or are speial tools/presses needed? Someone one here stated that the shaft could be obtained for about $40 I think.

How much labor(hours) or $$$ would be your experience if it were the axles you are familiar with?

My opinion is that FF should setup a scenario with the axle builder sets up a program where we ship our complete assembies to FF and they replace the short axle, with a longer one and send them back to us at cost.

I don't think that is unreasonable. Considering these parts were supplied as part of a complete IRS solution. I don't mind footing some of the cost, but for each of us to have to fork out up to $300 is unreasonable in my mind.

Anyone else who is part of the IRS package and the associated issue, I would like to hear from you to be able to have a complete list. I know the IRS package was available with the MK III and MK IV, but do not know whether it was an option with Mk I and MK II.

I'll contact Jim Schenck at Factory Five next week.

[Michael Everson]

My educated guess would be about 2 hours per side. The only special tools need would be the clamp tool for the boot clamps.
Mike

[mcwho]

Is that just the labor to fix the axles or are you including removal from vehicle? I am just looking for the labor time to fix the half shafts if they are sent out to an axle shop etc.

The firts time I saw this issue on here was back in Feb 11, 2012.

[MikeKelly]

Originally Posted by Jim McGehee

or maybe the deliveries in Feb. 2009 are not affected.

I think the short shafts started later than this.

Mike

[MikeKelly]

Originally Posted by mcwho

I am interested to know what the labor would be to replace just the shaft between the two CV joints. Is it something that can be done by a builder or are speial tools/presses needed? Someone one here stated that the shaft could be obtained for about $40 I think.

A little history might be in order at this juncture.

For years, FFR supplied only the shafts (not complete CV assemblies) with the IRS kit. The cost of the IRS option was very similar.

As an IRS builder, you literally had to round up Tbird CV assemblies, disassemble them, and then put them back together with the shorter FFR axles. Used, new, remanufactured - it was your problem as the builder.

This is what I was expecting when I ordered my kit in December 2009. I was shocked when I inventoried my basic kit in March 2010 and found that it included complete new CV assemblies. I already had Tbird CV assemblies on hand, disassembled, cleaned, and ready to receive FFR axles.

Additionally, every Tbird CV assembly I ever took apart (several) showed clearly that Ford ran the tri-lobe way out at the ragged edge of the plunge joint. I have no idea why Ford did that, CraigS' recommendation of 50% at ride height sounds a lot better to me, but the fact remains it's not the way Ford did it on the Tbirds (don't argue with me, go take one apart and look for yourself). And I never heard of a Tbird CV assembly failing (I'm sure it happened somewhere sometime).

As for how long it takes to replace an axle - less than 20 minutes once you get the hang of it. Do a forum search for "pipe drop method". It was discussed often.

Just a little perspective,

Mike

[mcwho]

Mike,
That IS good history, I did now know that they had been supplied like that.