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Old 08-20-2011, 11:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Nutserts/rivnuts suck for attaching driveshaft loop

Against my better judgment, I drilled 8 large holes in my 4" frame tubes to attach Forte's driveshaft loop as suggested. I made the rivnut tool and inserted the 8 supplied rivnuts. Half of them wouldn't hold and I had to run out and find a store that sold them, which was no easy effort. Glad I bought a pack of about 20. It took me multiple tries to get the things to hold, and I'm still not done. Had to walk away from the garage. Why didn't I just get self-tapping bolts and drill nice small holes in my frame? Getting a cheap mig welder and welding the loop in would have been a better idea, too, rather than drilling those big holes and messing with the stupid rivnuts. Anyone thinking about a driveshaft loop (seems advisable with the driveshaft spinning mere inches from the driver and passenger) might want to learn from my mistake and frustration and install it with self-tapping bolts or drill and tap your frame for standard bolts. Sorry...had to vent a bit...
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I've had mixed success with rivnuts. The tool from Harbor Freight is a waste of money. I ended up buying the Marson tool from McMaster Carr- much better.

As far as the driveshaft loop, I bought the generic one from Summit and welded the ends to the frame, cut the loop and drilled for re-attachment with bolts, so it is removable later.



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Old 08-21-2011, 03:47 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I bought the loop from Forte's, but didn't use the rivnuts. I drilled and tapped the 4" tubes for 8 self tapping bolts. Quite a job drilling from underneath, but they drew up tight enough and no messing around with the rivnuts. Jim
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I appreciate the heads up but I've got to ask what size rivnut tool you were using??? Those are some really big rivnuts, I just got the hoop about two weeks ago and have started to install it. It seems that having the frame up on stands and the hoop seated securely with a wood block held in place with a floor jack is holding it in place just fine for drilling. As for the rivnut, if the jack is holding the hoop in place and you start threading the grade 5 or 8 bolt...that rivnut has nowhere to go but into the frame. I haven't gotten that far yet but it seems to make sense, no? Sorry to hear you had such a hard time, I hope my way works a little bit better but I will definitely try with one before I drill any more holes.
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:45 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Rivnuts?

Rivnuts need a very exact hole size to be effective. Too small and they won't go in, too large and they won't expand enought to fill the hole and grip.

I would worry about water getting into the tubes from those rivnuts not fitting the curve of the 4 inch tube.

Since the drive line hoop has the holes predrilled, why not just put a jack under the hoop to hold it up, and do a rosette weld into the holes and on the edges of the bracket. No holes needed and no way for water to get into the tubes.

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Old 08-21-2011, 09:37 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I have not had a problem with them yet and I use them on everything I can. I also use red loc-tite between the rivnut and the hole in the steel being very carful not to get any in the threads which is a stud and bearing mount loc-tite. If you drill a hole in the frame and us a self tapping bolt it will eventually fail and start rattling.
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:57 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Shawn,
The rivetnuts can be a bit of a pain as you have found out. I live about an hour from Lancaster in Lineboro, MD 21102. If you need a hand I have a lift and welder so feel free if you can get the frame over here we could take care of it in short time.
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Old 08-21-2011, 01:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Shawn,
The rivetnuts can be a bit of a pain as you have found out. I live about an hour from Lancaster in Lineboro, MD 21102. If you need a hand I have a lift and welder so feel free if you can get the frame over here we could take care of it in short time.
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Now that is just way too cool. Wayne, you're a helluva guy.

Regarding the welding, may I suggest you consider welding some shoulder Kepp nuts into your tubes (instead of a hard weld). Smaller prep work and removable. Putting the head of the nut into the frame would be smoother and allow for finger start. (Pic below is shoulder nut, but suggest a crimp nut with shoulder)


Just another thought/approach.

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Old 08-21-2011, 01:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I've got to ask why?

HI: Looking at your pictures it seems the drive shaft loop is only protecting the tunnel if the rear u-joint fails. What if your going 70 and the front joint comes apart? Wouldn't the front of the shaft beat the tunnel up also? I thought the loop was centered on the shaft? Just asking.
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Old 08-21-2011, 01:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I've had mixed success with rivnuts. The tool from Harbor Freight is a waste of money. I ended up buying the Marson tool from McMaster Carr- much better.

As far as the driveshaft loop, I bought the generic one from Summit and welded the ends to the frame, cut the loop and drilled for re-attachment with bolts, so it is removable later.



Your loop is installed too far rearward. As previously said it should be centered on the driveshaft.
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Old 08-21-2011, 01:55 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Shawn,
The rivetnuts can be a bit of a pain as you have found out. I live about an hour from Lancaster in Lineboro, MD 21102. If you need a hand I have a lift and welder so feel free if you can get the frame over here we could take care of it in short time.
Wayne
Thanks for the offer. Very cool of you. I only have 1 or 2 to re-do (again) and hopefully I'll be good to go. My brother owns a repair shop in York and would also hook me up if I decide to weld it. This has been one of those things where something that seemed relatively simple turned into a time-wasting pain. Thanks again.
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Tig weld..

i tig welded mine in place, it looks like it came from factory five this way and no holes in frame for water to enter.
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Iv'e used a lot of riv-nuts. They dont work well when inserted in round tubing, they dont pull up and grab all the way around the riv-nut. They work great on flat, but not on round

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Old 08-21-2011, 02:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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You guys keep talking about water entering the frame...the manual recommended drilling drain holes to let it out. If you haven't done so, it might not be a bad idea as you've probably already got a lot of rivets which have penetrated the tube and will eventually allow moisture in.
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:57 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I'm not worried about the moisture issue, but I regret using the rivnuts in my frame tubes because they don't work so well in this application. The comment made about their not working well for round tubes is right on. If you're gonna use them be very careful to drill the holes so that the rivnuts will just barely fit and use JB Weld or Loctite. You will still probably have to redo some of them. BTW where do you live in Eastern NC? I was stationed at Cherry Point for almost 6 years.
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Old 08-21-2011, 03:30 PM   #16 (permalink)
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If you are going to use rivet nuts, make sure they ones with ribs.



Also make sure you use exactly the right size drill bit as dictated by the manufacture for the rivet nuts you select.

http://www.fastenal.com/catalog_pages/2010/3-281.pdf

It also helps to use a good quality tool for the job.



A last couple of notes: Make sure you have the correct grip range and you can use Loctite Red to help make sure they don't come loose.
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Old 08-21-2011, 03:40 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
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If you're gonna use them be very careful to drill the holes so that the rivnuts will just barely fit and use JB Weld or Loctite. You will still probably have to redo some of them. BTW where do you live in Eastern NC? I was stationed at Cherry Point for almost 6 years.
That sounds like an easy enough approach, I'll probably let the JB Weld sit before I start torquing them in.

As for NC-I am right around that general area. It's grown quite a bit in the past few years but I'm getting settled in quickly before I take off again. I'm actually 'in the field' right now...isn't technology great?
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:12 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Yeah, I was down at Lejeune last year for a friend's change of command. He stayed in and is a LtCol. Jacksonville was hugely different from what it was 20 years ago, but Havelock has hardly changed. Good luck with your build!
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I drilled and tapped my frame for the bolts.
It is probably less work then fiddling around with the Riv-nuts, etc., when all is said and done..
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:00 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Rivnuts

This topic could not have come at a better time for me, sorry for your trouble Shawn but thanks for venting. I was getting ready to start securing my brake lines this week using rivenuts rather than rivets so they could be removed if necessary. Im wondering if using the rivnuts to mount the clips in the 4" tubing is a mistake based on the comments in this thread. Do you guys have any suggestions whether this is a good/bad idea? One other question that I have not been able to find an answer to is what is the thickness of the 4" frame? Shawn please keep in mind that by posting your frustrations that you have had with the rivnuts may very well keep some of us from going down the same path. Trust me, your post probably just saved me alot of frustrations myself. Thanks for venting!

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Old 08-21-2011, 05:15 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Todd,

Rivet Nuts work if done right like in the post I did above. Although I would never use them for anything more than 1/4 or 5/16 inch. For the size of the both that you will use for the brake lines, you won't have any problems with the 4 inch tube.
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Hi Shawn,
The driveshaft loop I have built can be welded in place or use the riv-nuts. When I've installed the riv-nut I use a 3" long bolt, nut and flat washer to install the riv-nut. Once I located the postion of the riv-nut with a transfer punch or center punch, I drill one at a time the frame and install the riv-nut. Installing requires drilling (as I recall) a .525" hole. I insert the 3" bolt with the nut and washer closest the riv-nut. I then insert the riv-nut and while holding the 3" bolt ant riv-nut in place, I then thighten the nut which crushes the riv-nut in place. I then put the loop with 1 bolt and mark another hole and repeat the process.
You can call me anytime and I'll walk you through this process.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:08 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I was getting ready to start securing my brake lines this week using rivenuts rather than rivets so they could be removed if necessary. Todd
Todd, just rivet the line clamps on..you'll never need to pull them. If in the worst case scenario, and you had to, simply drill out the rivets.
JMHO..
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:20 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Mike hits a really important point; drill one hole at a time and fit it appropriately. If you don't you will quickly see just how much it shifted when you were putting the rivnuts in, and on the frame, you can't take that back.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:21 PM   #25 (permalink)
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FYI---The 4" frame tube is .120 wall thickness. Jim
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Old 08-21-2011, 07:23 PM   #26 (permalink)
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FYI---The 4" frame tube is .120 wall thickness. Jim
Which is way too thin to tap and thread and expect any real holding strength. Would any of you trust a 1/8" thick nut? If a u-joint did break, it would jerk those bolts out of the tube, then the driveshaft and the safety loop would be ripping around under there.

Last edited by rich grsc; 08-22-2011 at 03:15 AM..
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Old 08-21-2011, 07:44 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm going to finish what I started with the rivnuts and then I'm going to weld it, too. As unimpressive as the rivnut route has been, I would bet that I could rip the loop from the frame with a crowbar. I don't trust them.
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Old 08-21-2011, 07:49 PM   #28 (permalink)
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For hanging brake lines and the small diameter you would use, rivnuts probably would be fine. I riveted my brake and fuel line clips and would have no problem drilling them out in the unlikely event that it becomes necessary down the road.
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Old 08-21-2011, 08:22 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I quit! At least for the weekend...now since it's pouring and I had to roll the body buck back into the garage and over my roller. Had 2 more rivnuts fail and need to leave it alone. What a waste of time this weekend. Do yourselves a favor and weld your driveshaft loops in place. Weld, don't drill!
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:10 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Shawn,
If your brother can't help just PM me, I can do mig or tig. Don't worry, no cost. I hate to see some one bummed out on the build.
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