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Old 05-22-2011, 05:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hydraulic clutch issue

Just out checking the last few items before first start and I ran into a problem I must have missed earlier.
When I depress the clutch pedal, the hydraulic slave pulls the clutch arm, but obviously not enough to disengage the clutch. To test, I put the car in first gear, pushed in the clutch and checked to see if it would roll, but the clutch was still engaged.

My set up is a Wilwood .700 bore master cylinder and the Wilwood pull type slave cylinder. The master is mounted on the front of my floor mounted pedal box with the original style pedals. Original style chassis on my build.

What is the best direction to go? Larger master cylinder, or???????

Bob
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Old 05-22-2011, 06:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What size is your slave? Mine came from Mike Forte and is a 7/8 bore. It needs a minimum of a 1" Master to disengage the clutch. The master cylinders (from Wilwood) seem to have a 1" throw. If you have the same bore, you are pulling less than an inch (about 0.8" if my math is correct). A 1" would pull about 1.14" (check your slave to ensure that it has enough throw). I have an extra almost new Wilwood 1" if you are interested, PM me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BS View Post
Just out checking the last few items before first start and I ran into a problem I must have missed earlier.
When I depress the clutch pedal, the hydraulic slave pulls the clutch arm, but obviously not enough to disengage the clutch. To test, I put the car in first gear, pushed in the clutch and checked to see if it would roll, but the clutch was still engaged.

My set up is a Wilwood .700 bore master cylinder and the Wilwood pull type slave cylinder. The master is mounted on the front of my floor mounted pedal box with the original style pedals. Original style chassis on my build.

What is the best direction to go? Larger master cylinder, or???????

Bob
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Old 05-22-2011, 06:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I just checked and I'm getting approximately 5/8" (.625) of travel on my slave. The slave is the Wilwood 260-1333 7/8" bore slave. The problem is that I am using the Wilwood Compact master cylinders (260-6088) for my floor mounted pedal box and the largest they offer is a .750 bore.
I may have to find a way to adapt the 1" bore master to my pedal box.


I may also try drilling the clutch arm to mount the slave and pull rod in line with the hole in the bell housing and change the throw ratio to increase the throw. If I run out of options, this may be my only answer.

Thanks for the info. PM Sent

Bob
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Old 05-22-2011, 07:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
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There are different strokes for different folks.

Some seem to need a 1" master as has been stated and I think, I've even heard of someone thinking of using one larger.

Others are using a 7/8" bore master and that is what Mike Forte is now supplying in his set ups. 7/8" master to 7/8" slave

The smaller size of 13/16" is what Mike first supplied me but I exchanged it for the 7/8" bore after reading many threads and posts here expressing your very problem.

Just remember, the larger the bore the harder it will be to depress the pedal but, of course, you'll push more fluid and get more travel out of your slave cylinder. It will be a trade off.

As mentioned too, the larger bore master cylinders are also larger in length, however, they still mount the same way as the smaller cylinders. They also have additional mounts but you wouldn't need them.

Here is a picture of my pedal box on a Mk4. I'm just showing the difference in the cylinders. The two in the back of the picture are the .750 masters for the brakes. The one in the foreground is a 13/16" Master for the clutch system that I later replaced with the 7/8" but looks exactly the same as this one.


George
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Old 05-22-2011, 08:02 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I used the Wilwood pull type slave aand originally tried a 7/8" master. It would operate the clutch, but there was almost no pedal feel. I switched to the 1" master and it felt just like a stock type clutch only smoother.
You can probably tighten up your present setup so that it will work, but it will be very light, and for me it was way too light.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I currently have the same type of master as George (GWL) installed.. that is, the 'longer' Wilwood in 7/8". I haven't connected it yet, so I can't comment on the functionality with the 7/8" slave.

If you want to retain a 'short' master with a bore larger than .75", buy a Tilton. They come in bores up to 1.0.
I have one on my workbench just in case the Wilwood doesn't do the trick.

To note: the 7/8" Wilwood stroke is 1.2". The Tilton 1" diameter has a 1.1" stroke. That is longer than the Wilwood in the same bore size.


Here are the Wilwood diameters (in combination master form) and their respective stroke:
  • 5/8 Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.3 stroke) 260-3372
  • 3/4 Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.1 stroke) 260-3374
  • 13/16 Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.1 stroke) 260-5920
  • 7/8 Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.2 stroke) 260-3376
  • 1 Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.0 stroke) 260-3378
  • 1-1/8 Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.0 stroke) 260-3380
At the end of the day, George is correct in that everyone's setup is slightly different.. some experimentation seems to be 'normal'.

Good luck.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:40 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Persons View Post
I used the Wilwood pull type slave aand originally tried a 7/8" master. It would operate the clutch, but there was almost no pedal feel. I switched to the 1" master and it felt just like a stock type clutch only smoother.
You can probably tighten up your present setup so that it will work, but it will be very light, and for me it was way too light.
I am trying to understand this. You said the 7/8" is too light and the 1" gives you a stock feel? Can you explain this? I thought the larger master would make the clutch too light.

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Old 05-23-2011, 03:45 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Otis,

The smaller the master cylinder the less fluid is pushed and the less the slave will move. This makes the pedal very light and needs a lot of travel to release the clutch, sometimes more than can be achieved with the master and pedal setup. Lots of leverage but little movement of the slave. The same effect would occur if you made the pedal longer. More travel for the same amount of work makes it lighter.

I think J Persons last sentence is a little confusing and if given a chance to rewrite it he might say:

You can probably get your clutch to work with a little larger master cylinder but to me it was still too light of a feeling, so I went with an even larger master cylinder to give it more resistance with less pedal travel to release the clutch.

Now JP can slam me for putting words into his mouth but that's what I'm reading.

I have been reading about this situation for about a year now and I think there are many different brands of pressure plates that release at different points in the movement of the clutch lever inside the bell housing. This is only speculation on my part. I'm really a little behind Chris (HIRISC) but we both have been reading and studying this at the same time and using the experience of others who have written their thoughts in past threads.

George

Edit: Looks like John and I were very close in posting these last two posts. Hope I did alright John.
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Old 05-23-2011, 03:45 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by otis View Post
I am trying to understand this. You said the 7/8" is too light and the 1" gives you a stock feel? Can you explain this? I thought the larger master would make the clutch too light.

Otis
No, the larger the M/C in relation to the slave cyl, the harder it is to push. The larger M/C will move more fluid than the smaller one, and cause the slave piston to move further.
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Old 05-23-2011, 04:09 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HIRISC View Post
I currently have the same type of master as George (GWL) installed.. that is, the 'longer' Wilwood in 7/8". I haven't connected it yet, so I can't comment on the functionality with the 7/8" slave.

If you want to retain a 'short' master with a bore larger than .75", buy a Tilton. They come in bores up to 1.0.
I have one on my workbench just in case the Wilwood doesn't do the trick.

To note: the 7/8" Wilwood stroke is 1.2". The Tilton 1" diameter has a 1.1" stroke. That is longer than the Wilwood in the same bore size.


Here are the Wilwood diameters (in combination master form) and their respective stroke:
  • 5/8” Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.3 stroke) 260-3372
  • 3/4” Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.1 stroke) 260-3374
  • 13/16” Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.1 stroke) 260-5920
  • 7/8” Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.2 stroke) 260-3376
  • 1” Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.0 stroke) 260-3378
  • 1-1/8” Combination Master Cylinder Kit (1.0 stroke) 260-3380
At the end of the day, George is correct in that everyone's setup is slightly different.. some experimentation seems to be 'normal'.

Good luck.
After studying the Wilwood site and the Tilton site, I also found the Tilton 76 series may work with my set up since the Wilwood compact units (I have the 260-6088) only go up to .750 bore size.
I can't really use the Wilwood combination units in my set up with the floor mount pedal box and the exhaust so close by due to the plastic cap connection. It looks like the Tilton with the brass adaptor for the 4AN mounts would be the ticket for my purposes.

Are you looking to sell your cylinder?

Thanks a bunch guys, this has really been helpful in understanding what is going on.

Is there a limit to how far you can push the slave cylinder before it "bottoms out" or does damage to it?

Bob
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BS View Post
Are you looking to sell your cylinder?

Thanks a bunch guys, this has really been helpful in understanding what is going on.

Is there a limit to how far you can push the slave cylinder before it "bottoms out" or does damage to it?

Bob
Hi Bob,

Probably not quite yet.. I'm hoping the 7/8" Wilwood combo master will work for me, but I'm a week or so away from knowing. I got mine at Summit (because I have stuff coming from them every 5 minutes), but I'm sure the sponsor-guys have access to them too.

Yes, you can blow the slave out, but I don't know what combination of master size/stroke and slave puts you at risk.

We're all in this together Bob.. you'll be helping someone who asks the same question in no time

Chris
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Old 05-23-2011, 12:44 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Thanks,
I have an email in to Wilwood to see what their take is on this and which way to go. If they don't come up with something concrete fairly quickly, I'll be ordering the Tilton 1" master and try it out.
Man, I hate spending good money just to experiment with these items.

Bob
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Old 05-23-2011, 12:59 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Hi Bob,

Wilwood is horrible at email. Doubt they will be able to more accurately estimate the size (than the Forum).

If you can't use the longer combination-style Wilwoods, there seems a greater chance than not that the shorter (.75" max) will not push sufficient volume to work.

The only choice you'll have beyond .75" and short body is the Tilton. I searched for people who have tried this, but didn't run across any relevant posts.

In short, you may want to skip Wilwood altogether and jump in with the Tilton for your specific needs.

Best of luck.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:02 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIRISC View Post
Hi Bob,

Wilwood is horrible at email. Doubt they will be able to more accurately estimate the size (than the Forum).

If you can't use the longer combination-style Wilwoods, there seems a greater chance than not that the shorter (.75" max) will not push sufficient volume to work.

The only choice you'll have beyond .75" and short body is the Tilton. I searched for people who have tried this, but didn't run across any relevant posts.

In short, you may want to skip Wilwood altogether and jump in with the Tilton for your specific needs.

Best of luck.
Ditto. You'll be wasting your time trying to get any info from Wilwood. If the 1" Wilwood M/C won't fit, get the Tilton
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:19 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yeah on the Tilton Unit

I just switched to the Tilton 1" 76 series from the Wilwood compact .75"for the same reason. Needed more movement of the clutch fork. Works great, pedal effort is higher but OK. Using Fortes (CNC) 7/8 push slave, King Cobra clutch. Fittings all work out the same, just slightly different positions on the cylinder. Threaded shaft is much longer then the Wilwood, so you may have to trim it down a bit but plenty of threads left.

Also, the quality of the Tilton unit is heads and shoulders above the Wilwood, the Tilton internal Bore is polished and hard anodized...the Willwood are rough as hell and not anodized....my Wilwood leaked past the seal slightly when new. Pain the the neck to change by the way...worth the extra money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BS View Post
Thanks,
I have an email in to Wilwood to see what their take is on this and which way to go. If they don't come up with something concrete fairly quickly, I'll be ordering the Tilton 1" master and try it out.
Man, I hate spending good money just to experiment with these items.

Bob
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Old 05-23-2011, 09:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Is there a limit to how far you can push the slave cylinder before it "bottoms out" or does damage to it?

Bob
According to the Summit Racing site, the Wilwood pull slave has a stroke length of 1.375 in. This should be MORE than enough for your needs. For reference, my 7/8 slave has approximately 1.25in of stroke length and I am running a 1" master.

Wilwood Disc Brakes 260-1333 - Wilwood Slave Cylinders - Overview - SummitRacing.com
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Old 05-24-2011, 12:36 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Did the math

Hi Bob,

I just entered your numbers (0.7 and 7/8) into my Excel spreadsheet and it says you should get a bit over 7/8" travel out of the Slave with a full 1.4 inches stroke of the Master cylinder ( .54 cu in of fluid volume)

So either you got a bunch of air in the system or you are not moving the Master through the whole stroke. If you have been trying to lower your clutch pedal towards the footbox, that may be the case.

If you need more then 7/8 travel to disengage the clutch you need a bigger Master cylinder for sure.

In my earlier post the main reason I switched to the bigger Master was to lower my clutch pedal towards the floor, not to get full disengagement of the clutch... sorry, I forgot to mention that key fact.

Spreadsheet attached if you can use it.

Dave

PS - The Tilton 1" Dia, with 1.1 stroke can push enough volume to move the slave 1.5" according to the spreadsheet...so if as Tim said it is 1 3/8 stroke, you need to limit the pedal travel a bit to not exceed the stroke of the Wilwood pull slave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BS View Post
I just checked and I'm getting approximately 5/8" (.625) of travel on my slave. The slave is the Wilwood 260-1333 7/8" bore slave. The problem is that I am using the Wilwood Compact master cylinders (260-6088) for my floor mounted pedal box and the largest they offer is a .750 bore.
I may have to find a way to adapt the 1" bore master to my pedal box.


I may also try drilling the clutch arm to mount the slave and pull rod in line with the hole in the bell housing and change the throw ratio to increase the throw. If I run out of options, this may be my only answer.

Thanks for the info. PM Sent

Bob
Attached Files
File Type: xls Master cylinder calculator.xls (24.0 KB, 38 views)
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Last edited by SJDave; 05-24-2011 at 12:43 AM.. Reason: Added stroke calc for Tilton 1.1 stroke Master
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:01 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Dave,
I tried to use your calculator but I think I have a much earlier version of Excel and I can't make some of the functions work properly on my computer.

Making adjustments from what your input shows (1.375" stroke for the Wilwood slave cylinder) and inputting the information for the 1" and the 15/16" Tilton units, it is looking like the 15/16" Tilton is just about right on the money for stroke, but I can't tell for certain. Can you run the numbers for me and check it?

At $106 for the master cylinder, I'd rather not do this twice if I can help it.....

Thanks,
Bob
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:27 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Hey Bob,

That's as old a format as I can save it....(1997-2003 xls) format,..sorry.

With the 15/16 Master it can push enough fluid with full 1.1" stroke to move a 7/8 Slave 1.26".

So not the full 1.375".

I would go with the 1" Master, you can adjust the pushrod into the clevis on the pedal so the pedal bottoms out before the Master goes all the way...and you can lower your pedal relative to the brake and gas if you want since you have some extra volume capacity. I would be surprised if you need the whole 1.375 travel but if you do, the 1" can handle it and you can limit it with adjustment to limit the fluid volume.... the brake pedal starts closer to floor and bottoms out before full stroke is realized on the Master Cylinder. Your can also add a Mechanical STOP to the brake pedal somewhere if you want to keep the pedal high.

Good Luck! No worries!
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Old 05-25-2011, 01:51 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BS View Post
Just out checking the last few items before first start and I ran into a problem I must have missed earlier.
When I depress the clutch pedal, the hydraulic slave pulls the clutch arm, but obviously not enough to disengage the clutch. To test, I put the car in first gear, pushed in the clutch and checked to see if it would roll, but the clutch was still engaged.

My set up is a Wilwood .700 bore master cylinder and the Wilwood pull type slave cylinder. The master is mounted on the front of my floor mounted pedal box with the original style pedals. Original style chassis on my build.

What is the best direction to go? Larger master cylinder, or???????

Bob
first make sure all the air is out the slave it can be a bitch to bleed all the air.
and a 7/8 slave only moves 7/8 of an inch
the Tilton slave also has a stop c-clip that will keep the ram from coming out if my memory serves me correct they use them for accelerators on heavy equipment cranes
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:55 AM   #21 (permalink)
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What brand do you have Leo??

The Push Slave from CNC that Forte supplies is 7/8" bore and 1 1/8 total travel. Here's the link:

CNC, Inc. - Slave Cylinders

The Wilwood Pull is 1 3/8 total travel as stated in an earlier post with a 7/8 bore also.

Are you sure???
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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What brand do you have Leo??

The Push Slave from CNC that Forte supplies is 7/8" bore and 1 1/8 total travel. Here's the link:

CNC, Inc. - Slave Cylinders

The Wilwood Pull is 1 3/8 total travel as stated in an earlier post with a 7/8 bore also.

Are you sure???
maybe ur right i had a brainfart
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:47 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Great, I have followed your wisdom in alot of posts, so you do have credibility here. I didn't want Bob to get more confused by your comment....
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:36 AM   #24 (permalink)
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To provide some more feedback on my push setup.

I'm using Forte's 7/8" CNC slave and 7/8" Wilwood combination master cylinder.

I can get the full 1 1/8" slave travel, but to do so, I have to have the clutch pedal nearly at the top of the adjustment and push all the way back to the pedal box.. that's greater than 10" of pedal travel to achieve 1 1/8" of clutch fork movement.

Clutch pedal feel is very light.. I can push it with my arm.

Clutch engagement as at the last 1/4 of pedal stroke.

I have a 1" Tilton on the workbench and am going to switch to that tomorrow (as SJDave did from his previous 3/4" Wilwood) in hopes that I can lower the pedal down AND get more movement of the slave with maybe 5-6" of pedal stroke.

I was hoping the 7/8" would be correct, but....
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The F5 is an entry level kit, not a high end kit - don't expect perfection.

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Old 05-28-2011, 02:39 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Crap! More parts to buy.

Otis
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:54 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otis View Post
Crap! More parts to buy.

Otis
LOL.. always, right?

I'm taking the 7/8" off in the a.m. and will be switching over to the 1".. shouldn't take too long to run a new feed line (AN end into the Tilton) and bleed.
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The F5 is an entry level kit, not a high end kit - don't expect perfection.

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Old 05-28-2011, 03:10 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIRISC View Post
To provide some more feedback on my push setup.

I'm using Forte's 7/8" CNC slave and 7/8" Wilwood combination master cylinder.

I can get the full 1 1/8" slave travel, but to do so, I have to have the clutch pedal nearly at the top of the adjustment and push all the way back to the pedal box.. that's greater than 10" of pedal travel to achieve 1 1/8" of clutch fork movement.

Clutch pedal feel is very light.. I can push it with my arm.

Clutch engagement as at the last 1/4 of pedal stroke.

I have a 1" Tilton on the workbench and am going to switch to that tomorrow (as SJDave did from his previous 3/4" Wilwood) in hopes that I can lower the pedal down AND get more movement of the slave with maybe 5-6" of pedal stroke.

I was hoping the 7/8" would be correct, but....
I used a 1" Wilwood master and 7/8" push slave and it isn't bad at all. I was worried the engagement was going to be too far down the travel but after driving it around for the first time I realized I hadn't given the clutch a second thought. That there was my confirmation that all was good.
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Old 05-28-2011, 03:53 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info Darren.

I'll get mine swapped tomorrow and report back.. I'm hoping it will work out well. Brake fluid is messy.
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Delivered 3/25/10
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The F5 is an entry level kit, not a high end kit - don't expect perfection.

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Old 05-28-2011, 04:54 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Got my Tilton 1" master today via Summit. Will be installing it tomorrow and hope to get some help bleeding the master and slave to check travel.

Bob
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Old 05-30-2011, 02:09 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Installed my Tilton 1" master cylinder yesterday and same problem- I'm still only getting about 3/4" of travel on the slave cylinder.
There must be air in the system, even though I bench bled the master and connected the slave and bled it. No air seems to be coming out of either system but I may need to keep at it a bit to make sure.

HIRISC, how did yours come out?

Bob
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