Wilwood Balance bar.......Again.. - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum
FFCars.com Forums Advertisers Build Sites FFR FAQ Gallery

Go Back   FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum > Factory Five Racing Roadsters > Factory Five Roadsters
Register Garage iTrader FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read Auto EscrowAuto Loans


FFcars.com is the premier factory five cars Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-09-2010, 01:23 AM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
larryb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: connecticut
Posts: 2,340
Wilwood Balance bar.......Again..

So I was adjusting balance bar and most recommend more rear brake, since fronts lock up first. So I unscrewed bolt from rear clevis so this clevis is further away from cylinder and screwed in about 2 turns into clevis for front brakes, I'm not sure if I made a huge diff. when I press on brake it still seems there is more travel to front brakes??? Maybe the pressure is lower in the front so it always has more travel??? My brakes seem very good with this current setup but don't really know if I changed anything. On full stop front right locks up first then left and rears together...
__________________
FFR 6639 3.1 Complete kit received 11/28/08, 1965 289 stroked to 347, custom undercar exhaust inside frame, 3 link, tko-600 , ebrake mod, heater w/fresh air intake, Corbeau LG-1 seats, custom vinyl interior. Registered 6/10, 1st Racetrack 9/29/10 (limerock), first AutoX 10/10/10. Painted Corvette Velocity Yellow 4/11
larryb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-09-2010, 01:30 AM   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
FFCars Captain
 
BigLeo69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: st. louis missouri
Posts: 4,433
Garage
the lines are all bled aren't they? no air!
and you don't have a proportioning valve right?
so the fronts lock up before the back?
__________________
"Torque is the grunt
that gets us going, and Horsepower
is the force that keeps us moving"



MK3.1 #6945 her name is Buffy
p/u 04/04/09 roller 08/27/09
start-up Pearl Harbor Day 12/07/10
go-cart Memorial Day 2011
body on 11/11/11 Veterans Day
all legal except paint 02/12/12
372w handbuilt
BigLeo69 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-09-2010, 01:39 AM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
larryb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: connecticut
Posts: 2,340
Brakes work great, bled them a while ago, no valve and yes front right locks first and I""m not sure about order of others, hard to tell from skidmarks???? I think the rest lock at the same time, I was told front right corner is lightest so may lock 1st??????
__________________
FFR 6639 3.1 Complete kit received 11/28/08, 1965 289 stroked to 347, custom undercar exhaust inside frame, 3 link, tko-600 , ebrake mod, heater w/fresh air intake, Corbeau LG-1 seats, custom vinyl interior. Registered 6/10, 1st Racetrack 9/29/10 (limerock), first AutoX 10/10/10. Painted Corvette Velocity Yellow 4/11
larryb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-09-2010, 01:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
CS Cobra 65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 140
Larry-

I think you are going about this the wrong way. Adjusting the bias is not done by adjusting the clevis length- it is adjusted by threading the balance bar in or out (the threaded shaft that connects the front and rear clevises together through the top of the brake pedal). This adjusts the 'moment arm' between the front and rear and allows you to change the bias.

EDIT: What I said above assumes you are using the Wilwood pedal box from the complete kit. Please let us know your setup so we can better help you.
__________________
FFR 7161: MK3.1, 427FE aluminum stroker (482"), TKO600, IRS, SAI, Wilwood brakes, 17" Vintage pindrive wheels with 245/315's
CS Cobra 65 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-09-2010, 01:44 AM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
FFCars Captain
 
BigLeo69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: st. louis missouri
Posts: 4,433
Garage
are you staying straight in the braking on dry pavement, just a thought do it in reverse. maybe it will tell you more by the skid marks. but try it in an open parking lot PLEASE
__________________
"Torque is the grunt
that gets us going, and Horsepower
is the force that keeps us moving"



MK3.1 #6945 her name is Buffy
p/u 04/04/09 roller 08/27/09
start-up Pearl Harbor Day 12/07/10
go-cart Memorial Day 2011
body on 11/11/11 Veterans Day
all legal except paint 02/12/12
372w handbuilt
BigLeo69 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-09-2010, 01:47 AM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
btryon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Apex, NC
Posts: 186
The balance bar should not have much (or any) effect on the pedal travel needed to engage the brakes. It will only affect how much force goes to each of the MC's once both MC's start "pushing back".

I set mine up so that the front receives more pressure since that does most of the braking. I really haven't yet tried to lock em up yet though. Maybe I'll make a priority out of doing that this weekend.

So did I do mine backwards? Do I need more pressure on the backs? With larger calipers and more weight up front it seems to me that you want more force applied to the fronts.
__________________
--
Mark 3.1 Complete Kit, 4.6L SOHC
Side effects include blurred vision, heart palpitations, messy hair, and euphoria.
Ask your doctor if FFR is right for you.
btryon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-09-2010, 03:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Adrian1281's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 189
An easy way to get the balance bar in the "ballpark" and to easily see the changes adjusting it makes is to jack the car up so one side (front and back) is off the ground.

Have someone sit behind the wheel and push the brake pedal down while you try turning the front wheel. Have them push until you can barely turn the wheel then walk to the back. If you can turn the back wheel then obviously you have more front bias.

Seems simple enough right?

Document from Wilwood showing/detailing the balance bar and how to adjust it:
http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds252.pdf
Adrian1281 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-09-2010, 04:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Bob Cowan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 16,241
I have dual MC's, and they're both the same size (3/4"). Although they're made by CNC, the adjustment procedure is the same.

Ideally, you want the fronts to lock up at the same time. Assuming that the pressure is the same to both calipers, that will usually depend on the amount of weight on each corner. If it's a significant differance, you'll need to corner weigh the car.

And, you want the fronts to lock up before the rears. If the rears lock up first, they will try to come around and be the fronts. That's a bad thing.

At initial install, the bias will probably be towards the front. To get the right balance, you keep adding REAR bias until the REARS lock up first. You've found the threshold. Then carefully adjust back the other way until you're happy. It's a very carefull balance. Always add a little more front bias than you think you'll need; that adds a safety facter for the variable and often poor conditions on the street

If both MC's are the same size, You may not have enough range in the balance bar to get it just right. Sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't. It just depends on the rest of the system. I did not. I could not make the rears lock up first. I could with the Ford calipers, but not with the Wilwood calipers.

If you look at the clevis, you'll see it's two parts. One is a bullet shaped rod that's threaded into what looks like a rod end. You can add more bias by changing the length of the actuating rod. I set the balance bar in the middle, then made the rear rod slightly longer until I got the rears to lock first. Then I made the actuater rod slightly shorter. And then used the balance bar to get it tuned just right.

It sounds complicated and time consuming, but really isn't. Once I figured that out, it took me about 20-30 minutes to get the balance perfect.
__________________
.boB "Iron Man"
NASA Rocky Mountain TTU #42
Dart 427W, Momar 8 Stack EFI, 600'ish hp, TKO, 3.55 TruTrac, Red with Ghost Flames. More fun than should legally be allowed.
Bob Cowan is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-09-2010, 04:35 AM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 191
You want your front's to lock before your rears, if the rears lock then the car will turn around on you.
__________________
Dave S
66 Mustang Coupe
DRB GT40 #103 ($old)
G-Force Cobra ($old)
FFR 65 Coupe #385 ($old)
2ltr Turbo Westfield ($old)
DRB GT40 #64 ($old)
Escort RS2000 4 door twin webers
aussie65coupe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2010, 04:17 AM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
larryb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: connecticut
Posts: 2,340
I do have complete kit wilwood pedal box and the wilwood instructions show adjusting by screwing in to clevis and not changing threaded rod on balance bar, I tried adjusting balance bar and didn't seem to do anything, anyone really know how to do this before I make a mistake??????
__________________
FFR 6639 3.1 Complete kit received 11/28/08, 1965 289 stroked to 347, custom undercar exhaust inside frame, 3 link, tko-600 , ebrake mod, heater w/fresh air intake, Corbeau LG-1 seats, custom vinyl interior. Registered 6/10, 1st Racetrack 9/29/10 (limerock), first AutoX 10/10/10. Painted Corvette Velocity Yellow 4/11
larryb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2010, 05:35 AM   #11 (permalink)
GWL
Senior Member
FFCars Master Craftsman
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Williston, Vermont
Posts: 2,297
Larry,

I can't disagree with you about the confusion from the Wilwood manual. Below is a copy of a post I made recently explaining what I had to struggle with to finally understand how it works.

I have struggled with the understanding of the Wilwood system for sometime and could not come up with an answer. Even after much research on the internet. But finally, I figured it out.

Even the Wilwood Manual does not explain it well, if at all. At least, I couldn't figure it out from their manual.

The balance bar that the Wilwood Bias Adjuster attaches to move a bearing (spherical bearing) inside the brake pedal arm either closer to the rear brake MC and away from the front brake MC or by turning the Bias Adjuster the other way closer toward the front brake MC and away from the rear MC. This in turn applies more or less leverage or pressure to one or the other MC.

The pictures that are shown in the Wilwood manual, I think are exaggerated. I don't think when the brake pedal is pushed the difference that can be adjusted is that great. Just a slight difference to allow more or less leverage (pressure) to go to either the front or rear brakes.

Here is a picture of the Wilwood Bias Adjuster without the pedal. From the Wilwood site



This is a thread showing my struggle and others in coming to grips with the Wilwood Bias Adjustment.

stops great

Larry, a couple more thoughts


There is also another thread going on now in the GTM forum about this. It gets into some more technical thoughts about piston sizes and pressures. This is the link:
Wilwood Brake Bias/Balance Bar, and Remote Adjustment ?'s

One last thought, both MC's are the same size, however, the rear brake piston area is smaller the the total of the front brake piston area. If the balance bar is centered for equal movement on both MC's more fluid will be needed to put pressure onto the front brake pads. Thus the rear brakes will start to lock up first.

Now I'm in the process of thinking this all out and maybe someone can help out here, but the front brakes have more pad surface than the rear so that also has to be considered. None the less, I think the balance bar would have to be adjusted to favor the front brakes.

Re: Bob Cowan's comments. Bob is correct in explaining how to get the bias adjusted between the front and rear brakes. Getting the rear brakes to lock up first then adjusting so the fronts lock up first and then a bit more for safety.

It is my understanding that if you adjust the push rods make sure they are not pushing on the MC. There must be some loose movement in the rod, not adding pressure to the MC when your foot is off the pedal.

Additional thoughts: Have someone help with the bias adjustment. They can tell which wheels lock up first by viewing from outside the car.

George
__________________
Ordered Complete Roadster Kit - 12-24-09

Picked up Mk. 4 Roadster - 3-5-10

'75 Porsche Targa Carrera - Sold
'52 MGTD - Sold
'62 MGA - Sold

Last edited by GWL; 09-10-2010 at 05:41 AM..
GWL is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2010, 04:12 PM   #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
larryb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: connecticut
Posts: 2,340
thanks, maybe I just should leave it centered and return bolts in clevis back to where I started, brakes work well..
__________________
FFR 6639 3.1 Complete kit received 11/28/08, 1965 289 stroked to 347, custom undercar exhaust inside frame, 3 link, tko-600 , ebrake mod, heater w/fresh air intake, Corbeau LG-1 seats, custom vinyl interior. Registered 6/10, 1st Racetrack 9/29/10 (limerock), first AutoX 10/10/10. Painted Corvette Velocity Yellow 4/11
larryb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2010, 05:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
Senior Member
FFCars Captain
 
rich grsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: O'Fallon, Mo
Posts: 5,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWL View Post
Larry,

One last thought, both MC's are the same size, however, the rear brake piston area is smaller the the total of the front brake piston area. If the balance bar is centered for equal movement on both MC's more fluid will be needed to put pressure onto the front brake pads. Thus the rear brakes will start to lock up first.

George
The rear will not lock up first, the smaller pistons require more pressure to achieve the same clamping force as the larger front pistons. Volume of fluid isnt the same as pressure. This is why the balance bar is adjusted to apply more leverage (force) to the rear MC. The other way to achieve the same effect is to use a smaller MC on the rear brakes. With the same foot pressure, the smaller MC will create more pressure at the caliper.
rich grsc is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2010, 05:48 PM   #14 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Matstng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Simi Valley, Ca
Posts: 5,335
Garage
I'd suggest you call Wilwood and asked one of their tech guys?
805 388-1188

As others have said the balance bar is used to adjust the bias between the front and rear calipers. The clevis adjustment is to change the pedal position.
__________________
Happy Wife... Happy Life

MK 3.1, IRS,Koni,Wilwood 4WDB,Wilwood pedals, Quick rel steering wheel, 500HP/427ci(351W)/TKO600 5sp,17" AR Cobra III
Still building... but I'm now on the road
B.A.R exam passed, got my plates 09-28-11

Currently in the stable:
2004 Nissan Titan 2x4
1965 MK 3.1 Roadster (427W/TKO600)
1968 Mustang conv 302/C4 (bought in 86')
1968 Mustang Fastback (coupe conversion) 5.0 EFI/T5, Wilwood (For Sale)
2001 Paint (1 HP)
In search of the next project. :D
Wifes
2005 Mazda 3
1999 Corvette conv
2007 Palomino (1 HP)
Matstng is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2010, 06:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
Senior Member
FFCars Captain
 
rich grsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: O'Fallon, Mo
Posts: 5,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matstng View Post
I'd suggest you call Wilwood and asked one of their tech guys?
805 388-1188

As others have said the balance bar is used to adjust the bias between the front and rear calipers. The clevis adjustment is to change the pedal position.
2X, changing the clevis position will have no effect on bias.
rich grsc is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2010, 07:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
GWL
Senior Member
FFCars Master Craftsman
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Williston, Vermont
Posts: 2,297
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich grsc View Post
The rear will not lock up first, the smaller pistons require more pressure to achieve the same clamping force as the larger front pistons. Volume of fluid isnt the same as pressure. This is why the balance bar is adjusted to apply more leverage (force) to the rear MC. The other way to achieve the same effect is to use a smaller MC on the rear brakes. With the same foot pressure, the smaller MC will create more pressure at the caliper.
Thanks Rich, I know I've read all this in the past and was trying to figure it out again myself. There are a lot of other variables working at the same time: piston size, rotor size, pad size and type, fluid, compliance and I'm sure more to affect which wheels will lock up first.

I've done it before but I keep recommending this book on brakes. I found it a very good read. I don't always remember everything but the forum, you guys, are helping me work it all out.

High-Performance Brake Systems by James Walker Jr., 2007, cartechbooks.com

Thanks, George
__________________
Ordered Complete Roadster Kit - 12-24-09

Picked up Mk. 4 Roadster - 3-5-10

'75 Porsche Targa Carrera - Sold
'52 MGTD - Sold
'62 MGA - Sold
GWL is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:49 PM.




The Tire Rack

Intercity Lines

Ford Cobra Engines

Team 3 Wheels:

Midwest Classic Insurance:

FACTORY FIVE ROADSTERS:

ROADSTERS
Roadster Forum
4.6L Roadsters
Big Block Roadsters
Non-Ford Powered Roadsters

FACTORY FIVE COUPE/SPYDER:

TYPE 65 COUPES
SPYDER GT

FACTORY FIVE GTM:

GTM SUPERCAR
GTM Forum
GTM Classifieds
GTM FAQ

FACTORY FIVE '33 HOT ROD:

'33 Hot Rod Forum
Hot Rod Classifieds

FACTORY FIVE COMPETITION:

Challenge Cars
Road Racing
Autocross / Pro Solo
Drag Racing

GENERAL FACTORY FIVE DISCUSSIONS:

Free Photo Hosting
Tires / Wheels
Tops & Tonneaus
Upholstery
Gallery
Audio / Electronics
Car Care
Insurance / Registration
Brakes / Suspension
Ford Big Block Tech
Ford Small Block Tech
Forced Induction / NOS
Fuel Injection Tech

EVENTS:

National Events
Southwest
Northwest
NorCal
SoCal
Southcentral
Midwest
Southeast
Northeast
Canada

OFF TOPIC:

Off Topic Discussions
Other Car Discussions
Smyth Performance G3F
Automotive Photography Discussions

CLASSIFIEDS:

Cobras and Replicas For Sale / Wanted
Parts For Sale / Wanted
Donor Cars For Sale / Wanted
Other Vehicles For Sale / Wanted

NEWS / HELP:

FFCars.com News
Forum Help / Test

 


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.5.1
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.


 

Welcome to FFCars! The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the FFCars.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Factory Five Racing, Inc. or Ford Motor Company. This website has been planned and developed by FFCars.com and its forum members and should not be construed as being endorsed by Factory Five Racing, Inc. or Ford Motor Company for any purpose. "FFR", "Factory Five", "Factory Five Racing", and the Factory Five Racing logo are registered trademarks of Factory Five Racing, Inc. FFCars.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). Thank you for visiting the FFCars.com Forum dedicated to Factory Five.