Still about a year out from pulling the trigger on a kit and am in the obsessive planning stage. This after lurking for close to 2 years Have decided to go with 15 inch wheels because I love the look of all that rubber, particularly with the mods made to the MK4 body/rear. The issue of brakes is part of what is complicating the choice between base and complete kit. Are there any Wilwood brake options that will work for this or am I pretty much limited to the size/config that I can get with the complete kit?
Thanks again to all of you that post in this group. I don't think I would ever entertain the thought of a build without such a great resource.
I have 3 different kits that will work on 15" wheel. 1 is a 11' 4 piston system, another is a 12.2" system that work with Fox spindles and the last is a 11.75" 6 piston system we are custom making right now. This will fit under 15" halibrand style of wheel using a SN95 spindle.
__________________ gordon@levyracing.com Pro Builder and Go Fast Specialist
99/2000 NASA PSO Champion in a FFR
2005 FFR Challenge West coast Champions 2nd 2005 Nationals Sponsor for Tony B. ST-2 National Champion 2007
2009 TTC runner up-2010 TTB Runner up
Over 155 Turnkey FFR's in 16 years and still counting
It's good that you're obsessing about the braking system, and parts selection. A little planning here will make a big differance.
Of course, a lot depends on what you'rte going to do with the car. With 15" wheels, it doesn't sound like you're planning anything more than a fun street cruiser. With that thought in mind, this is what I'd build:
1. Wilwood calipers from Gordon. There's no better kit on the market at any price that I know of.
2. Dual CMC master cylinders with a balance bar. Gordon can tell you what piston size will work best.
3. Stock modified brake pedal, with the stock pedal box. First shorten the brake pedal to give you the proper ratio with manual brakes. Second, dog leg the pedal for the proper arc.
4. Use an adjustable pedal rod.
5. Modify the stock pedal box to give you an adjustable pedal return stop to match the modified pedal.
Dollar for dollar, this will give you the most bang for the buck. Especially 3,4, and 5. Those mods are almost free.
Keep in mind that the complete kit comes with a complete brake system, including Wilwood pedals and MC. But I don't think the calipers will fit a 15" wheel. If you get the complete kit, just get the caliper kit from Gordon.
__________________
.boB
Dart 427W, Momar 8 Stack EFI, 600'ish hp, TKO, 3.55 TruTrac, Red with Ghost Flames. More fun than should legally be allowed. http://home.comcast.net/~bobcowan035/site/
Not to hi-jack the topic but I think you should take a look at your tire options. I wanted 15 inch rims myself cause I prefer the softer ride and I prefer more rubber between the footprint and the rim. Well come to find out the specified sizes that FFR mentioned has a very small choice for the 15 inch rims. Now you could run the Goodyear billboard vintage race tires but I dont think they were recomended for street use. Just saying check the tires you might prefer a 17" over the 15" if you cant get the tires you want.
Rusty, that is the trade off. 17s gives you a much wider range of options...That extra sidewall you mention adds flex when cornering (bad) but gives cushioning when you hit bumps (nice on the street). Basically you have to make the choice - performance or old school look/cushy ride.
You can of course have a set of 15s for the street and set of 17s for autoX or track...but then you are limiting the size of your brakes to be able to fit the 15s.
Thanks for the responses. When I initially decided I wanted to do this almost 2 years ago, I really wanted 17 inch wheels. Also was leaning towards a 351 with EFI, but have since started to come around to the idea of a carbed 408. It really does limit me with the 17 inchers, but in addition to the look, I do think I'd prefer a slightly more bump friendly ride. No plans to track it or race.
The more I learn, the more confused I get I'll definitely look into tire choices, as they may partially make my decision for me. Will be starting to get my garage in order and acquire the tools I'll need over the next 6-9 months and will likely continue to obsess/plan all the little minutia in the meantime. I honestly don't know how some of you guys don't go nuts with this!
FFR's Mk4 is a "vintage look" replica body.
15" tires complete the look.
Mickey Thompson Sportsman S/T radials in 295/50x15 and 235/60x15 work really fantastic.
Stock Mustang brakes work well on the street as per Bob Cowan's recommendations above.
Don't get talked out of 15's.
Make a decision on the look you want and go for it.
Love the 15" meaty look:
Stock T-bird SC rears & Fox front brakes. PB's and stops very well.
__________________ Flying is the answer...What was the question?
Doug
Arrival: 11/26/06 (My Birthday) Roller: 4/20/08 First Start & Gokart: 10/18/08 Body back on for the first time since delivery: 1/18/09 Registered: April 2010 Graduation: When it's finished!
I'm using stock 2000GT PBR aluminum twin-piston calipers on the front. Can't imagine needing more to stop a 2300lb car, but then again, mine is 99+% street driven.
__________________
MKIII 351W, mid-shift T5, 3.73 IRS, Wilwood Dual M/C, PBR/Tbird brakes, Vintage 15" Wheels, FFR Koni's, SAI Mod delivered 09/2005, first drive 04/2009
Rusty, that is the trade off. 17s gives you a much wider range of options...That extra sidewall you mention adds flex when cornering (bad) but gives cushioning when you hit bumps (nice on the street). Basically you have to make the choice - performance or old school look/cushy ride.
You can of course have a set of 15s for the street and set of 17s for autoX or track...but then you are limiting the size of your brakes to be able to fit the 15s.
Correct. I orignally wanted 15`s but couldnt find any tires I liked in the correct size that had a high speed rating and had good traction that was ok to use on the street and on wet roads. So for me I had to go to 17`s in my plan which might not look that period correct but gives me wider ranges of tires. Not to mention with the IRS I shouldnt have to worry about softness of the ride quality as much. But who knows, following this thread might make me revert back to 15`s. Not like I would be racing competitively but for me atleast I didnt want to end up with these ugly cheap import tires, I was wanting some performance based goodyear tires or bfgoodrich if possible but havent seen a bfg radial ta rated for over 116 mph.
RayDoc, I have drove myself nuts over alot of things. I started out with a oem displacement 351w with 500 hp goal in my initial plan, then moved to a 408W stroker at 500hp. As of now I am looking at a 347W stroker rated at 450hp. Ive also flipped back and forth on rim size due to tire sizes, I love the vintage look and I didnt plan on doing agressive competitive racing just a track day or two but mostly street. But I also want the best brakes I can get as well. You can drive yourself crazy with this stuff. The current thing that is driving me crazy is paint color. I have tried numerous oem colors from 1956 - 1969 on a line drawing as well as using OEM two tone color options for the team stripe with the wimbledon white stripes. Its just one of those things that you have to step back for a moment and think about what theme you are going with and let the theme speak. If you are wanting to go with something that looks like its out of the 1960`s, by all means go with the 15" rims and check with one of those tire shops like coker. They have alot of the vintage muscle car tires which wont provide you the traction but if its a look you are going for it will complete it. On my idea, its basically alot of grey area. Part of me wants to go with a build of how a racer would be built today if it was built in a garage. The other part of me wants to go vintage style.
If you drive over 116 MPH then you should:
A. Be on a race track
B. Use specialized race tires on a second set of wheels.
C. Always be smart, don't take chances.
As mentioned, for street use no need to worry about tires or brakes as indicated in above post by Stinson Pilot.
I have 26,000 miles on my FFR Roadster. Lots of track days. Lots of cruises on the roads. 1 set of stock brakes; 2 sets of tires:
Street:
Track:
No Regrets.
__________________
FFR 3850K Mark II arrived 10/18/02; 95 Cobra EFI 5.0, , CSX Dash, IRS w/pin drive real Magnesium Halibrand Cobra II Rims w/ Goodyear 15" Eagle Billboard tires; SRP Paint 4/19/03; "Fun 65" plates; Engine runs 5/14/03; Insured 5/23/03; 1st Drive 5/31/03; Best Interior 3rd Place Vegas 11/8/03, Pic of Month Dec 03, Best Pantera/Cobra 2nd Place All-Ford Hillsboro 04, Best 60-66 at Sherwood 04, Best of all FFR National Show Las Vegas 11/04, Best Roadster Willow Springs 05, Best in Class AutoRama SLC Mar 06, Best Use of Chrome Knotts Apr 07, 23.1 avg mpg; 13.089 1/4 mi. Additions: Chrome pin drive Wheels with Mickey Thompson S/T tires 295/50R15 & 235/60R15, VPM bars, Torsen, Koni shocks 16" front 18" rear, 500 lb springs front and rear, leather seats.
Last edited by Larry N. Johnson; 06-09-2010 at 12:51 PM..
Man, it's always great seeing your car Larry. Just love the look!
JT
__________________
Just a shadetree mechanic trying to build a MKIII, FE 427, 2-4\'s, NASCAR Toploader, Trigo wheels, pin drive IFS/IRS. Leaning towards black...
An answer to my dilema Larry! Thanks a ton. Great looking tire. I had been toying with the idea of pin drive as well, and after checking out Vintage wheels, I have a feeling those are on my list now too. They both just look right and it seems there are more options for brakes than I initially had thought.
Thanks for the insight and input Rusty. I think I was originally looking at a much more modern build in terms of wheels, brakes color and EFI. I think I'm coming back to wanting to accentuate the real beauty of the cobra body shape. If I want modern, I can go out and buy a modern car. In the end, this will still out-handle/perform the original as well as most other things on the road. I would like for my wife to not feel it's a torture device however, and I think the 15 inch wheels along with IRS, ventilation, and liberal use of heat and sound insulation will go a long way towards that goal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty_S
Correct. I orignally wanted 15`s but couldnt find any tires I liked in the correct size that had a high speed rating and had good traction that was ok to use on the street and on wet roads. So for me I had to go to 17`s in my plan which might not look that period correct but gives me wider ranges of tires. Not to mention with the IRS I shouldnt have to worry about softness of the ride quality as much. But who knows, following this thread might make me revert back to 15`s. Not like I would be racing competitively but for me atleast I didnt want to end up with these ugly cheap import tires, I was wanting some performance based goodyear tires or bfgoodrich if possible but havent seen a bfg radial ta rated for over 116 mph.
RayDoc, I have drove myself nuts over alot of things. I started out with a oem displacement 351w with 500 hp goal in my initial plan, then moved to a 408W stroker at 500hp. As of now I am looking at a 347W stroker rated at 450hp. Ive also flipped back and forth on rim size due to tire sizes, I love the vintage look and I didnt plan on doing agressive competitive racing just a track day or two but mostly street. But I also want the best brakes I can get as well. You can drive yourself crazy with this stuff. The current thing that is driving me crazy is paint color. I have tried numerous oem colors from 1956 - 1969 on a line drawing as well as using OEM two tone color options for the team stripe with the wimbledon white stripes. Its just one of those things that you have to step back for a moment and think about what theme you are going with and let the theme speak. If you are wanting to go with something that looks like its out of the 1960`s, by all means go with the 15" rims and check with one of those tire shops like coker. They have alot of the vintage muscle car tires which wont provide you the traction but if its a look you are going for it will complete it. On my idea, its basically alot of grey area. Part of me wants to go with a build of how a racer would be built today if it was built in a garage. The other part of me wants to go vintage style.
If you drive over 116 MPH then you should:
A. Be on a race track
B. Use specialized race tires on a second set of wheels.
C. Always be smart, don't take chances.
As mentioned, for street use no need to worry about tires or brakes as indicated in above post by Stinson Pilot.
Of course, but what I was driving at was I am able to have one set of tires and I can drive the car to the track run it on the track then drive it home. No added expense of purpose race tires, no added expense of a second set of rims. The biggest issue on the 15" I forgot for me was I wanted the Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 tires. Well they dont come in the recomended 275/50R15. But I can get those tires or spend more money on a set of Michilens rated fairly close to the more expensive goodyear tires and be set. That was why I was looking at one set of tires is because I dont belive in trailering vehicles. If I was going to trailer this one to the track then I might as well go radical on the engine where its not even streetable. I never planned on competitive racing, just track day racing to run the car through its paces. So I dont really think I can justify the spending for expensive race only tires if its only going to see the track maybe one or two times a year. On the tire rating the speed raiting is good for what ever speed the tire is rated at for 24 hours. The 116mph tire can handle 130-150 mph but only in short bursts. But I will have to look more into the 15`s. If I can get the 15`s in a equal set all around I will consider 15`s again otherwise I will stick with my plan of 17x9`s on all four corners with the Michelin or Firestone tires.
But I do agree with your point of not needing a very high performance/speed tire for street driving. You can also have a second set of tires for those track days. I just prefer to have one set and be done.
Thanks for the insight and input Rusty. I think I was originally looking at a much more modern build in terms of wheels, brakes color and EFI. I think I'm coming back to wanting to accentuate the real beauty of the cobra body shape. If I want modern, I can go out and buy a modern car. In the end, this will still out-handle/perform the original as well as most other things on the road. I would like for my wife to not feel it's a torture device however, and I think the 15 inch wheels along with IRS, ventilation, and liberal use of heat and sound insulation will go a long way towards that goal.
I was planning on EFI as well. I was looking at the edelbrock proflo2 efi. Its pretty much like oem efi but looks like a carb. But since then I started saying screw it and leaning towards the EFI Stack system.
But long as you have a idea on what theme you are going with, stick to the theme and you will be happy with it. Like wise if you take it to a carshow it will have a better chance winning compared to one that has four different themes rolled into one.
Rusty, there is an intermediate answer to driving vs. trailering. Throw a trailer hitch on and tow a tire trailer with the roadster. A lot of us do that and get the best of both worlds.
The nice thing is that your track wheels don't have to be very pretty. You can usually find a used set that, as long as they aren't bent or otherwise out of balance, would work great and are cheap.
Besides, I get WAY more thumbs up driving down the road towing race tires than I do with just the car by itself. Folks see that you are actually doing something with it and it isn't just a trailer queen.
Take a look at the Mickey Thompson Sportsman S/R tires. More expensive but are supposed to be better in the wet and are I think they are rated for higher speed. I agree with Larry that you should not be driving at the limit of these tires if you are on the street, but I like the idea of being able to drive on the track with an extended limit of safety in the tires. On the street too.
I have been trying to find someone who has been running these tires to help evaluate for my roadster build. I've read a few comments in the past and they have been positive.
I still haven't entirely ruled out EFI, particularly if it could approximate the carb look. It still appeals to my practical nature and I like that it's a bit more efficient than a carb. I hadn't realized Edelbrock made an EFI system as I've mostly seen posts about the Mass-flo and Boss systems. A friend who has built a Challenge FF5 with a Mass-flo 302 said he would go to a 408 with carbs if he had it to do over again. He doesn't particularly like the Mass-flo system. He did say however that "if Edelbrock makes an EFI system, I guarantee that would work well". Maybe I'll split the difference and go with the 351 with EFI. 400+ HP still seems like an insane amt. 500+ begins to seem like a deathwish at times
At this point I'm just thrilled that I've settled on pin drive, wheels/tires and have the basic idea for a brake system. Either engine I go with will be based on the 351 block, so that also clears that up as well for ordering a kit to get started.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty_S
I was planning on EFI as well. I was looking at the edelbrock proflo2 efi. Its pretty much like oem efi but looks like a carb. But since then I started saying screw it and leaning towards the EFI Stack system.
But long as you have a idea on what theme you are going with, stick to the theme and you will be happy with it. Like wise if you take it to a carshow it will have a better chance winning compared to one that has four different themes rolled into one.
I do the dual wheel thing, swap for what I am using the car for.
I use the Single-piston calipers with HAWK HP-Plus Pads and brake cooling ducts. I will look to upgrading the calipers soon though.
Track:
Street:
__________________
FFR5148K MkII Roadster, FRP 306 345HP w/ carb, 3-link, disc brakes, Still Gel-Coat Grey! Now with roll cage and more track stuff, wrecked, beaten, man-handled, cut up, butchered, Freaky body mods, sat on by HOOTERS girls, still barely street legal.
Rusty, there is an intermediate answer to driving vs. trailering. Throw a trailer hitch on and tow a tire trailer with the roadster. A lot of us do that and get the best of both worlds.
The nice thing is that your track wheels don't have to be very pretty. You can usually find a used set that, as long as they aren't bent or otherwise out of balance, would work great and are cheap.
Besides, I get WAY more thumbs up driving down the road towing race tires than I do with just the car by itself. Folks see that you are actually doing something with it and it isn't just a trailer queen.
I have seen that alot. Problem is though I didnt mention that I was leaning towards getting a coupe over the roadster. I love the roadster look but theres just too many of them Ive seen in houston. So I am not sure if theres a way to hook up a tire trailer to a coupe. I did plan on welding up my own tow/tie down hooks at the front and rear so wouldnt be hard to do a trailer hook up if possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDoc
I still haven't entirely ruled out EFI, particularly if it could approximate the carb look. It still appeals to my practical nature and I like that it's a bit more efficient than a carb. I hadn't realized Edelbrock made an EFI system as I've mostly seen posts about the Mass-flo and Boss systems. A friend who has built a Challenge FF5 with a Mass-flo 302 said he would go to a 408 with carbs if he had it to do over again. He doesn't particularly like the Mass-flo system. He did say however that "if Edelbrock makes an EFI system, I guarantee that would work well". Maybe I'll split the difference and go with the 351 with EFI. 400+ HP still seems like an insane amt. 500+ begins to seem like a deathwish at times
At this point I'm just thrilled that I've settled on pin drive, wheels/tires and have the basic idea for a brake system. Either engine I go with will be based on the 351 block, so that also clears that up as well for ordering a kit to get started.
Holly also has a EFI system as well. If you were looking for a cheaper fuel injection route holley also sells a TBI with computer that simply bolts down atop your carb manifold. Personally if it was me I would just skip the TBI and go to true EFI preferably Sequential fire EFI. Group fire EFI is good too but Sequential fire is the most efficent you can get.
As I have seen on the forums, lots have stated that over 450 hp is just "bragging rights". Also have seen it said that anything over 450 hp will be hard to get it all to the street on street tires. I know I would like 500 hp but I also dont want something that if you get caught in rain you end up spinning the tires constantly or that you have to hit the throttle to avoid a collision or beat a yellow light (there are those times that you end up in nomans land where your too far away to make it through the light at a steady speed but your also too close to stop) and pressing the throttle results in smoking the tires. I would prefer a 351 but with all this looking up on bearing surface speed and how it heats the oil up at higher speeds I desided on the 302 stroked to 347. Should make 450 hp easily, would be slightly cheaper, and would have a slower bearing surface speed at the same rpm compared to the 351.
The pindrive is a good choice. I had that on my orignal list years ago but with seeing the new pindrive look while keeping the standard lugs, I desided on that. It looks the same I say and it doesnt require the safety lock wire on the spinner. But lots of people prefer the true pindrive over the look alike.
Hi guys. Probably pulling the trigger on a basic kit tomorrow. I'm set on the 15" wheels and want to know if the brakes I have (stock 98 GT brakes) will fit inside the 15" rims. Anyone have any luck with this setup?
FFparts listing for the wheels lists the 99-02 and 87-93 as options for brakes, but says nothing about 94-98 brakes. Looking forward to the build!
I’m running the Trigo 15” wheels, my friend has the 15” Vintage set. We are both using 98 Mustang GT front brakes / rotors and 98 Lincoln IRS. Brake parts on mine are stock except for the pads. Jack has the Wilwood replacements for his and the wheels fit right over it all on both cars.
I hope this helps on the brakes. For a better idea, give Gordon Levy a shout. He can get you just what you want and or need.
Tires….., I think the 15” wheels with the taller side walls look the best, but they will tend to roll a bit more in the corners, where the 17” wheels with a shorter side wall tire will track better and provide more grip. Fact is, the number of us who said “I’m only going to car shows and just it drive around” then wind up at an autocross or local rally is, well, about all of us who have ever said that. Every time my wife and I go to an autocross she starts to talk about getting her Mustang out to play, and she doesn’t even really drive that thing anywhere. More confusion…….
Good luck with all of this. It’s a blast.
I’m running the Trigo 15” wheels, my friend has the 15” Vintage set. We are both using 98 Mustang GT front brakes / rotors and 98 Lincoln IRS. Brake parts on mine are stock except for the pads. Jack has the Wilwood replacements for his and the wheels fit right over it all on both cars.
I hope this helps on the brakes. For a better idea, give Gordon Levy a shout. He can get you just what you want and or need.
Tires….., I think the 15” wheels with the taller side walls look the best, but they will tend to roll a bit more in the corners, where the 17” wheels with a shorter side wall tire will track better and provide more grip. Fact is, the number of us who said “I’m only going to car shows and just it drive around” then wind up at an autocross or local rally is, well, about all of us who have ever said that. Every time my wife and I go to an autocross she starts to talk about getting her Mustang out to play, and she doesn’t even really drive that thing anywhere. More confusion…….
Good luck with all of this. It’s a blast.
I have a set of 17" Cobra rims/tires in case I want to turn on a dime, but I want the 15's for cruising. Thanks for the info. You a 135 driver? I'm a Viper dude currently doing a stint at Vance. Not a lot to do out here, so why not build a car...
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Have decided to go with 15 inch wheels because I love the look of all that rubber, particularly with the mods made to the MK4 body/rear. The issue of brakes is part of what is complicating the choice between base and complete kit. Are there any Wilwood brake options that will work for this or am I pretty much limited to the size/config that I can get with the complete kit? 
I'll definitely look into tire choices, as they may partially make my decision for me. Will be starting to get my garage in order and acquire the tools I'll need over the next 6-9 months and will likely continue to obsess/plan all the little minutia in the meantime. I honestly don't know how some of you guys don't go nuts with this!
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