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Old 10-04-2009, 02:14 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Sway Bar + Bumpsteer Kit - 17" Wheels - Do I Still Need SAI Mod?

Trying to get moving on the front suspension. I have Forte's bumpsteer kit, and I'm thinking about ordering a front sway bar from him as well.

I will be doing some auto-x with this car when it's done, so handling is important. I've been reading about the SAI mod, and all of that, but I can't seem to get definitive information on all 3 of these items together, and if they are over kill or not?

I'll have 17" wheels, and I have FFR tubular front arms.

Any advice you guys can give? I'm really hesitant to roll out another $300 on the SAI if it's not the right thing to do.
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Old 10-04-2009, 04:01 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Kevin, Send Mark Dougherty a PM. Check out the SoCal forum about today's event. He is an encyclopedia of information.
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Old 10-04-2009, 04:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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From everything I have read (all I can go by), if you are going 17" wheels, the SAI mod is a no brainer. I am not 100%, but do not recall reading any posts where people put did the SAI mod but felt it made no difference.
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Old 10-04-2009, 04:53 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The SAI does make a great improvement in the handling of the car.
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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from everything I've read, the SAI is a no brainer - I'm doing everything I can to make the front handle as well as possible - SAI, 17" wheels, sway bar, bumpsteer kit, power rack with Heidt's valve, solid offset rack bushings.

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Old 10-04-2009, 05:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Your bump steer is upside down?
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Old 10-04-2009, 06:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Yep...

I think this would be correct..

Credit NiceGuyEddie..
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I dunno - I thought I had it set up parallel to the LCA - it's deceiving looking down on it - here's a better pic maybe...

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Old 10-04-2009, 07:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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It can go top or bottom depending on some other factors with your setup. Parallel to the LCA is a good starting point. To really see if you are set in the most beneficial position you should remove the spring and cycle the suspension through the range of travel while noting the change in "toe". Use the position that results in the least amount of "toe" change through the range of motion. Like most suspension tuning there are some compromises.

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Old 10-04-2009, 08:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I'm not trying to sound like an ass. I find it amazing, people spend hundreds of dollars fixing problems they dont even know if they have or not, then arent sure even if the parts are correct. How can you know if you have bump steer if you havent driven the car? I have several hundred miles on mine and have not yet experienced a bump steer issue, maybe I will under the right (wrong?) conditions, if so then I will deal with it.
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Old 10-04-2009, 08:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich grsc View Post
I'm not trying to sound like an ass. I find it amazing, people spend hundreds of dollars fixing problems they dont even know if they have or not, then arent sure even if the parts are correct. How can you know if you have bump steer if you havent driven the car? I have several hundred miles on mine and have not yet experienced a bump steer issue, maybe I will under the right (wrong?) conditions, if so then I will deal with it.
Bump steer is a matter of geometry. You can check as described above.
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Old 10-04-2009, 08:26 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich grsc View Post
I'm not trying to sound like an ass. I find it amazing, people spend hundreds of dollars fixing problems they dont even know if they have or not, then arent sure even if the parts are correct. How can you know if you have bump steer if you havent driven the car? I have several hundred miles on mine and have not yet experienced a bump steer issue, maybe I will under the right (wrong?) conditions, if so then I will deal with it.
I hear ya on that. However, it seems like the issues been "pre-addressed" are those that are inherently flawed in the geometry of the suspension as it is designed. Anti-sway seems like a no-brainer, and bumpsteer is pretty cheap to give additional adjustments on the front end (same with the bushings), so it's hard to go wrong there. The SAI is $300, so it's a harder sell for me, even though the consensus appears to be it's also a now brainer.
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Old 10-04-2009, 08:59 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I don't disagree on what Rich is saying either.

I have no idea what Kevin intends on doing with the car once finished. Folks like P-Matt and I drive the wheels off of it.

If you intend on racing it in any way, I recommend front end mods. Otherwise quit blowing your money, get the darn thing finished, and start driving it..

The stuff we are talking certainly helps handling, if you need better handling for some reason.
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Old 10-04-2009, 09:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The SAI mod should be done regardless of what you do with the car. Without it, the steering reminded me of a lawn tractor.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:06 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Arrow The right spindle

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for a SAI mod you need 96 and younger spindles, which it appears beartoothweb has.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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There's so much disinformation in this thread it's not funny.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:15 PM   #17 (permalink)
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My experience in driving a friends car w/ SAI is that it is a nobrainer. Made his manual rack car almost good enough for me to skip PS. To offer some backround. Using the mustang spindles the way FFR did initially was a definate compromise. Needed to get everything to fit and be inexpensive and there really wasn't much option when using 15 inch wheels. Note that 15s were a LOT more common on these cars 10 yrs ago than now. W/ many more using the 17s, the extra room allowed some upgrading to the geometry. I forget the numbers but the standard SAI is a lot higher than most regular cars when i looked at a bunch on our hunter alignment machine at work. The angle is in the normal range after the SAI mod is done.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:44 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The FFR upper ball joint mounts were designed so you could run 15 in wheels. If you have 17" wheels the SAI mod moves the ball joint down and out and 'tucks" it under the rim. Look at the picture above with the FFR upper mount and visualize a line from the center of the upper ball to the lower. This steering axis is towards the outside of the tire and this is the source of the "twitchy" steering you hear about. After running my car at speed events for a year with the FFR bump steer kit I took it apart and installed a front sway bar and the SAI mod. MUCH easier to do during your initial build (my car is a Coupe), best $$ I ever spent all the "twitchy" is gone. Why pay for an alignment twice? IMHO install this and take it to an alignment shop that is willing to work with you as to caster, camber etc. The shop I used even measured Ackerman for me. Cost me $50, learned a lot.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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For a "no BS bump steer" explanation, read through this tech article from Longacre Racing, and especially look at the diagram for how it all works.
http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=13
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:15 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I didnt pretend to be an engineer and understand the specifics behind the SAI Mod. But to me I want my steering to handle the best it possibly can much like a BMW or Corvette, or whatever. So I bought the SAI Mod and installed it. Once installed it just places things together in angles that "look" like they were meant to be. But like I said, I am no engineer nor a master racer....just an average builder and even that might be stretching it.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:04 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:09 PM   #22 (permalink)
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the SAI mod changes the autocross tuning quite a lot, so i would do it sooner than later so you dont have to retune the car. there is significantly more grip with the SAI mod and more linear steering input.

i certainly won a lot of events without the mod, but the car is definitely faster with it.
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:23 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophitoxaemia View Post
the SAI mod changes the autocross tuning quite a lot, so i would do it sooner than later so you dont have to retune the car. there is significantly more grip with the SAI mod and more linear steering input.

i certainly won a lot of events without the mod, but the car is definitely faster with it.
Thanks.

This is a dumb question, but the ONLY SAI mod available is the one from Mark? I believe he "invented" it, so that would make sense. I'm just surprised someone else hasn't done something similar.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beartoothweb View Post
Thanks.

This is a dumb question, but the ONLY SAI mod available is the one from Mark? I believe he "invented" it, so that would make sense. I'm just surprised someone else hasn't done something similar.
The only one I'm familiar with was pioneered by Dave Borden with help from many contributors/testers and is now marketed and sold by Jeff Collins at Whitby Motorcars:

http://www.whitbymotorsports.com/UIn...ventoryid=1604


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