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Old 12-07-2009, 05:11 PM   #31 (permalink)
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It all depends on how the harness is configured as to how they use the relay. The relay can be controlled from a positive wire from the fuse box or it could be controlled by a ground circuit. You should have received a schematic with the harness, and you will need to follow that, or make modifications to the harness and how the relay is used.

Most thermostatically controlled fan switches operate by grounding the circuit. This can be accomplished by wiring pin #85 on the relay to the thermostat sender. If you want to install a toggle switch override on the fan circuit, simply tap into that terminal and run the other terminal on the toggle to ground.
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:08 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Thanks John. Since the relay is already part of the fuse box, I assume there is no further wiring required, but I am electrically challenged. Also, there are wires out of the dash harness that are labeled for the fan switch. So, I have a dash switch and a relay in the fuse box, and wire up front to hook to the fan itself.

I do not see any wires in the RF harness labeled to the thermo switch, even though I got one in a package labeled " oil/water temp kit". The sensor is only labeled 240-33, and the inventory lists a part no. 13127, 185 degree thermostat switch. The package contains a long two pronged connector. This appears to be the thermo controller for the fan if I can figure out where to connect it. It has nice terminals on each end like it is designed to plug right in somewhere.

I may have to contact FFR and ask them what to do.

Thanks again. Ralph.
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:18 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I have been running a manual switch only, here in sunny and hot Phoenix AZ. Only need it when the temps climb sitting in rush(slow) hour traffic. I do not mind checking all my guages every few minutes. This way I can keep track of all my systems.

Mike
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:07 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Here you go....

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Old 12-08-2009, 12:10 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Just note that there are not 2(two) #87 pins on the relay, I was just showing that the # 87 pin is split in 2(two) directions.
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:25 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I have been running a manual switch only, here in sunny and hot Phoenix AZ. Only need it when the temps climb sitting in rush(slow) hour traffic. I do not mind checking all my guages every few minutes. This way I can keep track of all my systems.

Mike
Don't loan your car out (unlikely anyway) or let the wife take it if that applies. I thought about that rout since mine is a track car but I have let others co-drive at autocross events, I was concerned so I hooked it up so that the ECU turns on the fan through the constant control relay modual at its pre-determined if reached. Then I used the circut that would turn the fan on high when the air conditioner was activated I used a switch on the dash to ground that terminal of the CCRM. This is an easy way for the EFI guys to have both automatic and manual control of the fan.
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:03 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Eric, your's is a beautiful diagram, and I have studied it before, but is it for a stand alone relay, or the one wired into the FFR supplied complete kit fuse panel?

The supplied RF harness has two wires already running to the fan, labeled "cooling fan" and "fan ground". And, two wires out of the dash harness that are labeled "cooling fan" and "switched feed". Also, there is a package of electrical components just labeled "oil/water temp kit". It contains a screw in sensor with a weather-tight connector and a two- wire cable that looks like it plugs in somewhere. Very helpful.

I may have to forward this to FFR and ask for guidance.

Ralph.
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:01 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I purchased the donor kit, my harness is from a 93 GT.
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:13 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Ralph i will get my info up this afternoon....
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:42 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Ralph:

I can't remember exactly why by I ended up using the Forte two temperature switch instead of the F5 thermostat, probably a thread on this forum that led me to spending more money.

I do have a printout of the "How to wire your F5 Electric Fan" that is contained in this thread in my plastic baggie with the F5 provided stuff so I'm assuming I thought the diagram was correct. The hand drawn diagram was directly from F5. It was all the documentation they had but does not include using an override.

Outside the dash components I used very few of the RF wiring harness grounds. This harness has way too much stuff grounded to what terminates in only a few points. I made my fan ground right by the thermo switch that I mounted on the driver side of the X support. I also did not use the connections directly from the fuse box as the Forte unit had its own fuse assembly. I used the "switched feed" from the switch so that the fan would only work when the switch was on. I also did not see the need to run an override switch. I agree with previous posts that Detroit makes millions of cars without a fan override switch.

The F5 temperature sensor has a single electrical post. The sensor itself needs to be mounted in the water supply on the engine side of the thermostat. Per the wiring diagram the wire from the sensor is connected to 85 on the relay which also goes to the dash toggle switch. Thus the thermo or the manual switch can activate the fan.

No one is more wiring challenged than me so you'll do OK.

Jim
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Old 12-08-2009, 04:07 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Just note that there are not 2(two) #87 pins on the relay, I was just showing that the # 87 pin is split in 2(two) directions.
On a Bpsch automotive relay, there is a pin #87 and a pin # 87A. #87A is the opposite function of #87, that is when 87 is open 87A will be closed. If you were to wire a lamp to 87A, the lamp would be on when the fans were off, and off when the fans were on.
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Old 12-08-2009, 05:00 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Jim, thanks for your comments.

FFR must be providing a new type thermo sensor as mine has two connection points and a weather-proof type connector attached to a long black cable (the two wires are encased in a plastic-like outer covering) with a two-pin connector on the other end. This sounds different than the one post connector you mentioned.

I emailed FFR to provide some type of instructions, since I don't think I am the only one confused (or, I guess I could be).

Ralph.
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Old 12-08-2009, 05:10 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Ralph,

What you are describing sounds like the temperature gauge and its connectors. The two wires from the temperature sensor in the intake have a water tight connector with the wires traveling through a heavy plastic coating and terminate in a white connector that in turn connects to the temperature gauge wiring in the dash.

Jim
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Old 12-08-2009, 05:47 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Jim, I think you are correct. I just went out to check the back of my water temp gauge and it appears to connect to the two-wire cable I was describing. I told you I was electrically challenged.

I guess the other unmarked sensor in my electrical packaged stuff is the fan thermo sensor, as I can see it has CLR 185 printed on the sensor itself. And the blue wire in the engine harness labeled "water temp" must connect to it. I guess "water temp" was confusing me as I wouldn't call it that.

So, from all of this, can I assume that the FR harness is already wired with a fan relay in the fuse block; the wires in the front wiring harness simply connect to the fan; the wires in the dash harness just connect to an over-ride switch; and I am good to go?

You mentioned that you did not have a fan over-ride switch and you would rely on the temp. sensor. You did not hook up the dash harness provided wires to a switch?

Thanks for parting the clouds for me. Ralph.
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:46 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Because if the thermo switch fails, you will overheat the engine if you have no way to manually turn on the fan. The manual override is also great for quickly cooling down the engine after a full throttle run.

The fan should be wired through a Bosch type relay. If the RF harness didn't come with a fan relay, Painless wiring has relay kits for this available from Summit and others, or if you have the knowledge, you can piece a relay kit together a little cheaper than the Painless relay kit.
Ron Francis wiring made the harnesses for the FFR vehicles to FFR specs. As with many hot rodders, a bypass or override switch is preferred. I believe that is the reason FFR had the harness made as is. Ron Francis Wiring sells many different fan relay options including adjustable temperature and even dual fan models. The sensor is a lug that slides under an intake bolt. Really slick. Feel free to ask me about any of our products and the reasoning behind the design. email me at ron@ronfrancis.com
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:52 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Eric, your's is a beautiful diagram, and I have studied it before, but is it for a stand alone relay, or the one wired into the FFR supplied complete kit fuse panel?

The supplied RF harness has two wires already running to the fan, labeled "cooling fan" and "fan ground". And, two wires out of the dash harness that are labeled "cooling fan" and "switched feed". Also, there is a package of electrical components just labeled "oil/water temp kit". It contains a screw in sensor with a weather-tight connector and a two- wire cable that looks like it plugs in somewhere. Very helpful.

I may have to forward this to FFR and ask for guidance.

Ralph.
Ron Francis wiring made the harnesses for the FFR vehicles to FFR specs. As with many hot rodders, a bypass or override switch is preferred. The two wires to the fan itself are quite simple. The fan should have the same two wires and the only concern is that they be installed correctly so the fan does not run backwards. The switch has a 12 volt feed and the other side of the switch gets the cooling fan wire. The oil and water gauge wiring are not related to the cooling fan system. Feel free to ask me about any of our products and the reasoning behind the design. email me at ron@ronfrancis.com
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:00 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Thanks John. Since the relay is already part of the fuse box, I assume there is no further wiring required, but I am electrically challenged. Also, there are wires out of the dash harness that are labeled for the fan switch. So, I have a dash switch and a relay in the fuse box, and wire up front to hook to the fan itself.

I do not see any wires in the RF harness labeled to the thermo switch, even though I got one in a package labeled " oil/water temp kit". The sensor is only labeled 240-33, and the inventory lists a part no. 13127, 185 degree thermostat switch. The package contains a long two pronged connector. This appears to be the thermo controller for the fan if I can figure out where to connect it. It has nice terminals on each end like it is designed to plug right in somewhere.

I may have to contact FFR and ask them what to do.

Thanks again. Ralph.
Ron Francis wiring made the harnesses for the FFR vehicles to FFR specs. As with many hot rodders, a bypass or override switch is preferred. The two wires to the fan itself are quite simple. The fan should have the same two wires and the only concern is that they be installed correctly so the fan does not run backwards. The switch has a 12 volt feed and the other side of the switch gets the cooling fan wire. Their specs did not call for a thermostat circuit so it is only switched on and off using the dash switch with the relay provided. You can add the thermostat using one of the many diagrams provided here. You use the same relay we provided. You do not have to duplicate the relay and other wires connected to it. The oil and water gauge wiring are not related to the cooling fan system. Feel free to ask me about any of our products and the reasoning behind the design. email me at ron@ronfrancis.com
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:19 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Ralph,

You should have received a 'Chassis Wiring Harness Installation Instructions' for the Ron Francis Wiring harness. The centerfold of these instructions (pages 16-17) give you an overview of the fuse box and the wiring harness. To the far left of page 16 is a layout of the fuse box. It shows a cooling fan relay. Toward the bottom of the wires that appear to be coming out of the fuse box there is a blue lead marked 'Dk Blu Cooling Fan' that ends up in the front harness. This would be the power for your fan.

A couple of wires above the blue wire is 'ORG - Cooling Fan' that goes from the fuse box to the dash harness. This is probably the one you are talking about for your override switch. It is not clear to me that this orange wire will do what you want it to do. It looks to me like it is simply another source of electrical power directed to the dash.

I found the RF diagrams to be very confusing because I am electrically challenged and the wires show coming out of the fuse box have no relationship to the positions of the relays and fuses of the fuse box itself. Also this harness is not setup to work with the Vintage Guages that I used. I wired most of the dash guages directly to the senders and bypassed the RF harness. For the lights and gas tank I used the RF harness.

I have not reviewed all the previous posts to this thread but maybe someone has already laid out the solution or provide you with further input on the override switch. Sorry I can't be of more help. I ended up cutting the wrapping off the dash harness and tracking the wires the old fashion way. Eventually I ended up being comfortable with the wiring and got everything working OK, but it was not an easy task for me.

Jim
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:52 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Jim, I have the harness instruction manual. My comments would be the same as yours. Thanks.

Ron Francis, thanks so much for jumping in here to help me out. If I read your comments correctly, you designed the harness to FFR specs and those specs. did not provide for a thermo circuit. The system you provided is all the wiring, plus relay, for an electric fan, that is just switched on and off at the dash.

Is your Dk-Blu-water temp. wire that is part of your sending units bundle in the engine compartment designed to be connected to a water temp. sensor and just run back to a temperature gauge? FFR must have changed that wiring because that is the packet of wire and sensor they now have labeled "oil/water temp kit". This kit ties the temp sensor in the engine directly to the provided temp gauge. This kit appears to make your wire us-used.

Included in an unmarked package in my wiring components is a sensor with markings: "Airpax 0819 CLR 185 Mexico", which I am assuming is FFR's way of now providing a thermo switched option. Can anyone verify my assumptions? It would be nice if there were some guidance as to what this part is, and how to incorporate into the existing wiring, rather than having someone like me try to figure it out.

Ralph.
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Old 12-09-2009, 03:24 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Very sorry for delay "some day I suppose" really helped me on this. we spoke on phone and he walked me thru this and helped me understand how relays work. I used relay in supplied fuse box and rewired it in the car ( a bit of pain in the a&&) the relay is wire as such: bottom plug (87) goes to fan (blue wire), top plug is red (30) power I think this is how it is wired already. I changed the other inputs the ground on right (2 blk wires) not goes to brown gauge feed. The other side orange connects to wire from thermo sensor and goes to switch. the other side of switch is grounded. The way i understand this and was educated by (SIS) The power from 30 to 87 is not switched on until turned on by gauge feed which doesn't get powered until car on, and is grounded thru either switch on dash or thermo switch in engine. HTH
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Old 12-09-2009, 12:28 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Thanks Larry. I will try to digest your comments.

Does this all seem harder than it should be, or is it just me? I was glad to see Ron Francis add his insight. I hope FFR also comments on what they envisioned.

Thanks everyone. Ralph.
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:50 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I agree, I think FFR could do a better job coordinating and communicating with vendors such as ron, he could have wired it differently to accomodate the thermo switch, also he could have added relays for headlight etc etc, once again these are custom builds but there is always room for improvement. My response is simalar to other schematics suggested, i think it is the same as j persons, just more specific to the included RF relay.
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Old 12-09-2009, 03:30 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Ron Francis wiring made the harnesses for the FFR vehicles to FFR specs. As with many hot rodders, a bypass or override switch is preferred. The two wires to the fan itself are quite simple. The fan should have the same two wires and the only concern is that they be installed correctly so the fan does not run backwards. The switch has a 12 volt feed and the other side of the switch gets the cooling fan wire. Their specs did not call for a thermostat circuit so it is only switched on and off using the dash switch with the relay provided. You can add the thermostat using one of the many diagrams provided here. You use the same relay we provided. You do not have to duplicate the relay and other wires connected to it. The oil and water gauge wiring are not related to the cooling fan system. Feel free to ask me about any of our products and the reasoning behind the design. email me at ron@ronfrancis.com
Thanks
Ron Francis
The oil/water temp kit has nothing to do with the cooling fan. Those wires are for the oil and water temperature gauges only. Sorry for any confusion there.

If you have a one wire sensor you can cut the black ground wire coming from the back of the cooling fan relay and extend it to the engine compartment to the fan control sensor. The dash switch wires can then be permanently connected together as they would not act as an over ride switch as we talked about in this blog yesterday. BTW, we do not supply the "sensor" so I can't help with part numbers of anything on that issue.

Feel free to contact me on any issue concerning the wiring we supply or changes /modifications you might be considering at ron@ronfrancis.com.

Thanks for listening,
Ron
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Old 12-09-2009, 03:39 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Ralph,

You should have received a 'Chassis Wiring Harness Installation Instructions' for the Ron Francis Wiring harness. The centerfold of these instructions (pages 16-17) give you an overview of the fuse box and the wiring harness. To the far left of page 16 is a layout of the fuse box. It shows a cooling fan relay. Toward the bottom of the wires that appear to be coming out of the fuse box there is a blue lead marked 'Dk Blu Cooling Fan' that ends up in the front harness. This would be the power for your fan.

A couple of wires above the blue wire is 'ORG - Cooling Fan' that goes from the fuse box to the dash harness. This is probably the one you are talking about for your override switch. It is not clear to me that this orange wire will do what you want it to do. It looks to me like it is simply another source of electrical power directed to the dash.

I found the RF diagrams to be very confusing because I am electrically challenged and the wires show coming out of the fuse box have no relationship to the positions of the relays and fuses of the fuse box itself. Also this harness is not setup to work with the Vintage Guages that I used. I wired most of the dash guages directly to the senders and bypassed the RF harness. For the lights and gas tank I used the RF harness.

I have not reviewed all the previous posts to this thread but maybe someone has already laid out the solution or provide you with further input on the override switch. Sorry I can't be of more help. I ended up cutting the wrapping off the dash harness and tracking the wires the old fashion way. Eventually I ended up being comfortable with the wiring and got everything working OK, but it was not an easy task for me.

Jim
The FFR harness will wire any gauges new or old as all gauges are wired the same other then the physical location of the connections. The only gauges it won't wire are older mechanical gauges that only need a wire for a light. Then the oil / water temp wires might not be used.

The oil/water temp kit has nothing to do with the cooling fan. Those wires are for the oil and water temperature gauges only. Sorry for any confusion there.

If you have a one wire sensor you can cut the black ground wire coming from the back of the cooling fan relay and extend it to the engine compartment to the fan control sensor. The dash switch wires can then be permanently connected together as they would not act as an over ride switch as we talked about in this blog yesterday. BTW, we do not supply the "sensor" so I can't help with part numbers of anything on that issue.

The FFR design of the dash fan switch is not so much an over ride as it is an on - off control. I think due to the concerns I have heard, we should swap this around so it is easier to install a thermostat. BTW, we have a really slick adjustable temperature controller, our AR-67 found at www.ronfrancis.com.

Hope this helps,
Ron
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:58 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by larryb View Post
I agree, I think FFR could do a better job coordinating and communicating with vendors such as ron, he could have wired it differently to accomodate the thermo switch, also he could have added relays for headlight etc etc, once again these are custom builds but there is always room for improvement. My response is simalar to other schematics suggested, i think it is the same as j persons, just more specific to the included RF relay.
Headlights don't normally need relays. Only high output models (not sealed beams) need a relay. We sell our HR-58 dual relay if you feel you need one. Our wire and switch can handle factory typ elights just fine. You can order the HR-58 at www.ronfrancis.com
Can someone send me a photo or two of this package? "package of electrical components just labeled "oil/water temp kit". I'd appreciate if you would send it to me direct so I know it came. ron@ronfrancis.com.
thank you
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:48 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Ron, photo sent. Ralph
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