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Old 02-12-2009, 12:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Carb Tuning 101- Edelbrock

I've got a 99' Explorer 302 converted to carb. Edelbrock AVS Thunder 650 carb.
Car starts and idles very well, but when you start to put your foot down, it stumbles very badly. If you smoothly apply the go pedal, it accelerates pretty nicely, but anything more than that and the stumble starts and won't stop as long as you have the pedal down past a certain point. Back off on the pedal, all is well.
Just looking for some quick ideas till I can get a proper tune done.
I don't want this to be a Holly verses Edelbrock thread either.

Thanks guys...
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Old 02-12-2009, 01:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Does it just bog once and recover or does it bog-run-bog-run in 1st and 2nd but get better in 3rd? Ask me how I know

See this A/F plot for your carb running on my car (from the buildsite)



http://www.worldisround.com/articles.../photo354.html

http://www.worldisround.com/articles.../photo355.html


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Old 02-12-2009, 03:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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OK...I'll bite.

I have the same carb (650 Edel Thunder AVS)...and way down on the to-do list is an item to change it.

But for now...mine bogs once and recovers. Say you're in third gear at about 2000rpm. if you floor it, it stumbles for about 1/2 second, and then takes off like a bat out of he77.

It's a minor annoyance to be sure...but any suggestions on a cheap, easy fix, knowing I'll change the carb in 6 months or a year?

By the way...I'm a newbie at carb tuning. I can rebuild a carb...but am not experienced at the tuning aspect.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Greg, it seems to bog and stay there till I get my foot out of it. I don't need to let off completely, just back off and it smooths out.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The misfire is caused buy a lean condition. It sounds as though in your case it is extremly lean.
Check your float level. Find out what main jets you have in the carb and let us know what you have in there. If these are OK you should address the stumble with the accelerator pump and jets
The best way to check the jetting is to use an O2 sensor. If you can get one installed it will take away much of the guess work

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Old 02-12-2009, 04:19 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I have an easy, frustration free fix for your problem but your thread rules won't allow me to mention it.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Steve, I've already considered that fix down the road. I already have this one and just want to get it on the road for the time being.

Alright, I'll allow it: Holly, holly holly!!

There, now I've said it.

DD, I'll check the float level tonight.
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Old 02-12-2009, 05:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Doug - simply add another carb...



Not much help I know...but mine run great!

Perhaps you can have it Dyno-tuned?
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Old 02-12-2009, 05:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Doug,
I'm so over the EDL experience I can't muster the energy to go through it again with you. I can tell you that I used an LM-1 wideband, worked with EDL tech's, tried different float levels, main and secondary jets, rods, accell pump settings, secondary air spring adjustments, engine timing changes and TWO different EDL carbs.

I could cure the lean bog but at the expense of pig-rich WOT or pig-rich criuse mode. I just moved the problem somewhere else in the operation. It seemed to run pretty good in several tune settings but the mpg sucked and the wideband confirmed what was not always obvious.

EDL sent me an email and stated the carb's would not work on a 302 in this light car and THEY recommended I buy a Holley or Bary Grant!

I borrowed a Holley 670 and what a difference! No bogging and oscillations. Nothing else was changed, just the carb. I settled on a new Holley 570 and with a 2-step main jet increase, an .004" idle fuel restrictor increase and a 2-step secondary jet decrease, I have a car that runs very well, and gets up to 24 mpg on the road.

Good luck with the EDL.

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Old 02-12-2009, 05:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Gothcha Greg. I've read a lot about the Edelbrock problems with these cars. Unfortunately, I had already bought this carb before I discovered that.

Brian, looks good. That was one of the options I had considered and still may in the future. I bought the Edelbrock as an interim measure.
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Old 02-12-2009, 06:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Doug,

I fought the same problems that you are experiencing. I adjusted A/F ratios, float levels and anything else the experts suggested. As you mentioned you have this carb and you want to make it work. I had the same mindset. I could fix one problem, only to trade it for another. I will say one thing; I got 23mpg with the darn thing. After a year of frustration I replaced it with a 600cfm DP, manual choke and life was good again.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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This doesn't address your issue but may help down the road...

http://www.bob2000.com/carb.htm
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:55 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The hesitation problem may be caused by the duration spring used on the accelerator pump of the 650 cfm thunder carb is not strong enough, we use a accelerator pump with a custom wound 8 pound duration spring inorder to make to pump squirt more active. The pump with the stiffer spring has cured every car we have tuned with the hesitation problem that you discribed. FYI, Edelbrock offers a accelerator pump with a VERY STIFF duration stronger spring that came in thier 800 cfm Thunder carb.

the attached pic show the stock pump and the pump with the stiffer spring

I hope this helps Henry @ olescarb
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File Type: jpg edelbrock pumps.jpg (243.5 KB, 71 views)
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:58 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info guys.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:06 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Henry, would that fix work on a stumble issue for a 1406 carb as well? I have a friend with that carb who has a problem with a stumble coming out of a hard turn.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:31 AM   #16 (permalink)
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the pump will also work on a performer (1405 or 1406) but a hesitation problem you discribe in a high speed corner is more than likely due to the fuel moving away from the jet(s) due to the g-force. this problem is why most tuners stay away from Edelbrock (carter afb/avs) carbs in a good cornering car like a cobra.

If you are interested the following link is to part 1 of a article we did for Kit Car magizine
http://www.kitcarmag.com/techarticle...ine/index.html

part 2 never made it onto thier web site but the following link may also be of interest regarding tuning a carburetor equipped engine

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti..._equation.aspx


i hope this helps Henry @ olescarb
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:46 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Edelbrock tuning 101.
1-install 1 Edelbrock carb.-have a problem
0-number of Edelbrock carbs. after throwing the POS in the trash
1-number of Holleys to buy to solve the problem.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I have to respectfully dissagree with Henry on the acell pump fix. I know he knows a lot about carbs but if it was only a pump fix, the larger fuel shot might help but once it's supplied, it burns up and the issues of "as long as you keep your foot in it, it stumbles", becomes a lean condition related to jetting. The G-force explaination makes sense to some degree.

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Old 02-13-2009, 03:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_M View Post
I have to respectfully dissagree with Henry on the acell pump fix. I know he knows a lot about carbs but if it was only a pump fix, the larger fuel shot might help but once it's supplied, it burns up and the issues of "as long as you keep your foot in it, it stumbles", becomes a lean condition related to jetting. The G-force explaination makes sense to some degree.

Greg
Greg i agree that the as long as you keep your foot in it quote, the problem may be due to a lack of fuel flow, ignition output, a lean a/f mixture and so on but the pumps have been a problem for us. We even use a heavier duration spring on most Holley carbs that is very similar to the duration spring used on a Mighty Demon, this spring allows us to keep the squiter size smaller so the pump spray is more easily vaporized.

The jet placement on a carter designed afb/avs carb is towards the centerline if each fuel bowl and it is raised off the bottom of the fuel bowl so when you apply g-forces to the fuel on one side the fuel washes away from the jet (causing a lean condition) while the other side of the carb the fuel level will raise (causing that side of the carb to go rich). the same g-force problem happens in a Holley except it is from the front (primary) to rear (secondary)thus the rich on heavy breaking problem and the need for jet extensions on a drag race Holley equpeed car.


I hope this helps Henry @ olescarb
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Thanks Henry,

Here's a couple photos (from the buildsite) I took of the EDL 650 carb showing what Heney was talking about as far the jet placement. The main jets are toward the right and you can see the baffle to prevent fuel from rushing away from the secondary jets under accell.






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Old 02-13-2009, 05:10 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Good stuff guys. Went from 101 to graduate school. It's always good to get more than you pay for!!
Thanks again...
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Old 02-13-2009, 08:22 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The EDL-1468 pump is the part number I used to get a heavier spring on my 1405 600CFM EDL. Cured the "from cruise to flat to the floor" hesitation and I'm on the middle pump arm hole. Got the idea from one of Henry's posts somewhere else.

That carb in Greg_M's picture is mounted backward from mine. I thought I did it right?
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Old 02-13-2009, 08:26 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Mine is reversed to take advantage of the EFI cable path. There is no issue with operation per EDL.

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Old 02-14-2009, 12:35 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Ok guys. Got home today to check the float level etc. Decided to check the timing since I haven't really messed with it since I gokarted in October.
Set it close to 12-13 degrees btdc. Went for a drive, what a difference, no, I mean no hesitation.
And for those that don't believe it happened:

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Old 02-14-2009, 12:40 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Wink john 2456

Doug, Have you got or downloaded the edel carb manual ?? I have. It is easy to follow. I had same problem with my 331 stroker. Was too lean. I re-jetted to #18 jets and went to larger metering rods and springs. Problem GONE. You need to read the manual in order to solve the issue. They provide a simple A/F graph. You can also adjust accel.pump easily located on outside of carb. Just read manual and you can adjust at no cost. Otherwise you spend more $$$$ for new carb that drinks a lot of gas. John
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Old 02-14-2009, 12:10 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Doug,
Looks like it's working for you now. Couple of questions; what was your timing before you adjusted it, did you make any other carb adjustments, do you have 4x4 full headers or j-pipe?

Thanks,
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:02 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Greg, turns out my timing was about 5 deg ATDC. I set it to around 12 deg BTDC and didn't touch the carb. I have J pipes. Don't know how I missed the timing.
I thought that I should drive it after setting the timing before any other adjustments so that I'd have a new baseline to start with. Doesn't look like it needs much.
I plan on buying a wide band O2 sensor to do the fine tuning, but for now, it's running great.
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Interesting about the J-pipes. While I was working out the issues on mine it seemed the people running J-pipes had better luck with the EDL carbs.

Greg
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:33 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I bought this carb from a forum member, so I didn't really expect any problems, just fine tuning.
Great website you put together.
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:46 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinson Pilot View Post
Gothcha Greg. I've read a lot about the Edelbrock problems with these cars. Unfortunately, I had already bought this carb before I discovered that.

If you spend some extra time searching this forum and others you will find that for every person who solves an Edelbrock problem by throwing on a Holley, there's a Holley person who solves their problem by putting on an Edelbrock.

Glad to hear your problem is fixed. If you end up needing some fine tuning help, I would start out with a call to Edelbrock's tech line and speak to one of their engineers for reccomendations -- not a phone jockey, ask to speak to one of their engineers that specializes in tuning.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bisson View Post
After a year of frustration I replaced it with a 600cfm DP, manual choke and life was good again.

....and, of course, you're probably getting all of 8-10 MPG now too.

Last edited by turboguy; 02-14-2009 at 03:53 PM..
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