Superformance is better than FFR because...

[SunDude]

Hmm, gotta say I was surprised to find a section on this forum entitled "Superformance." Not sure exactly what you were all expecting to talk about here, so I figured I'd start a (possibly) interesting new thread.

****************

Complete this sentence.

"Superformance cars are better than Factory Five Racing cars because..."

[John Card]

OK, I'll bite...

I think for some people, Superformance might be a better bet. Why? They are built to a common standard (semi-production), so when you pay your money, you know what you are going to get. No surprises, and a good thing for someone not inclined to do much in the way of customization or unique changes. It comes at a price, but for the guy that wants to drop in an engine and trans and go, it works.

For me, FFR is better. I got in at a lower price that I could afford, and I can make it the way I want it. I don't want a car that is the same as the rest of them. I'm building a coupe, and I have looked closely at the build quality of the Superformance coupe, and I wasn't impressed. While it was built better than some FFR coupes I have seen (all FFR cars vary depending on the builder), the build quality and attention to detail doesn't match my car. I wouldn't trade mine for a Superformance, and I'm pretty sure mine would destroy a Superformance at the track too.

Different strokes... It only bothers me when I hear Superformance guys that have a superiority attitude towards FFR (not saying that you do - I don't know you well enough to say that). It's the same attitude that a group of FFR guys might have towards a Street Beast. Sure, some SPF's are nicer than some FFR's, but sometimes it is the other way around. For what it costs to build a SPF, I could build a better FFR and have plenty of money left over, but some people don't have that ability or desire to build it themselves - to each his own.

[trevor]

when I ran the Ultimate Track Car Challenge last summer, my FFR ran a 2:09, the guy in the superformance ran a 2:22. He also has more power. Note: Spec miatas can run mid 2:20s
I signed him off for time trial early last year. His car handled very poorly and we both run the same slicks.
I believe that is enough said about track performance.

[AC Bill]

...they get a higher resale price.

[Twosons]

My feeling is that a IRS FFR is better than SPF cause:

1) Frame is miles better on FFR.
2) Ally underpinnings is big plus.
3) Have the ability to set it up as you like........

SPF's get higher resale prices because they are more $$ up front and do not have the stigma of the donor car. FFR set their mark with the donor concept of "Want to offer a $50k car for $10k pricepoint" Words of Mark Smith.

SPF's are built with Smith's, new Ford parts and high end materials. All the same, materials that is, a similar FFR would be a better car! It would be lighter, more rigid and more authentic underneath. My opinion anyway.....

[SunDude]

Glad to see some nibbles, finally.

I was a bit facetious in starting this thread, I must admit. I fully expect all you FFR owners/builders to defend your cars. I know I would.

Was hoping to see some real zinger answers too. Let 'em rip boys! It's your forum, after all.

(For the record, I'm no Superformance snob. I love my car and my choice. It was perfect for me. But regardless of what brand you own, it's the passion that counts most.)

[gilunionhall]

hi guys -

first off - there was a show about factory five kits on the speedchannel the other night - i am not sure if it was new or a repeat - but i had not seen it before.

next -

here is my perspective on the ffr vs spf discussion.

i am not mechanically inclined and if i was to buy a cobra i would lean toward the spf line because the it comes to you complete with the drivetrain installed by a dealer.

on the other side of the coin -

when i hear about a ffr car, i typically think of a "kit car" completed by someone in their garage.

i realize these 2 statements may be a broad categorization leaving many details up to each persons/cars specific situation.

for example - there are some guys whose work in their garage rivals and surpasses what you get from a professional dealer.

i also think that you need to keep an open mind and if you are in my situation (not meechanically inclined) you would need to keep an open mind to other manufacturers other than SPF and be very careful of the details in each situation.

arent these online forums neat - what did we do before the internet?

gil

[Lex]

Very easy choice for me. I always go with the underside 1st. I can build anything I want around it but not if I'm dead. Here's a couple photos of what I look at 1st. Which one would you rather be in a crash in? Also for all you guys who say you aren't builders and would rather buy a completed car, or one you just have to put a driveline in, there's plenty of vendor/builders just on this forum that can build your car and probably still be cheaper than an SPF.
Superformance Frame:

Factory Five Frame:


Which one do you think would protect you more?

[lewpoberezny]

Don't forget there are plenty of guys to help or build a Factory Five car for you

Originally Posted by gilunionhall

hi guys -

first off - there was a show about factory five kits on the speedchannel the other night - i am not sure if it was new or a repeat - but i had not seen it before.

next -

here is my perspective on the ffr vs spf discussion.

i am not mechanically inclined and if i was to buy a cobra i would lean toward the spf line because the it comes to you complete with the drivetrain installed by a dealer.

on the other side of the coin -

when i hear about a ffr car, i typically think of a "kit car" completed by someone in their garage.

i realize these 2 statements may be a broad categorization leaving many details up to each persons/cars specific situation.

for example - there are some guys whose work in their garage rivals and surpasses what you get from a professional dealer.

i also think that you need to keep an open mind and if you are in my situation (not meechanically inclined) you would need to keep an open mind to other manufacturers other than SPF and be very careful of the details in each situation.

arent these online forums neat - what did we do before the internet?

gil

[maestro69]

A plus for spf is that it comes with side windows that can open...... And the interior is nicer as a base eventhough the interior of ffr is personalisable....

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Lex

Very easy choice for me. I always go with the underside 1st. I can build anything I want around it but not if I'm dead. Here's a couple photos of what I look at 1st. Which one would you rather be in a crash in? Also for all you guys who say you aren't builders and would rather buy a completed car, or one you just have to put a driveline in, there's plenty of vendor/builders just on this forum that can build your car and probably still be cheaper than an SPF.
Superformance Frame:

Factory Five Frame:


Which one do you think would protect you more?

Lex,

Not to burst your bubble, but the 1X1 light wall steel "birdcage" on the FFR frame is not meant to be a major structural item. It is to support the body and aluminum finish panels only. Do a search, I believe even Jesper (FFR) has chimed in on this one in the past.........

Bill S.

[FFR5452]

I have had both, and still own an SPF, and here is my take:

1. FFR is lighter overall and a far better race car.

2. FFR build quality is all over the map. Some are pieces of art constructed by true craftsmen. Others are a pile of used parts crudely thrown together. Thus, resale value is perceived as being low.

3. SPF has consistant build quality and is heavier. Constructed in a factory with all new parts that are meant to go together. Resale value, and initial cost, is higher because of this.

4. FFR is meant to be personalized. No two are the same.

5. If you've seen one SPF, you've essentially seen them all. Most mimick the original fairly well.

6. Most SPF owners prefer to write a big check rather than get their hands dirty and build from scratch.

7. Most FFR owners have traces of their own blood on every nut, bolt and panel of their car.

There are over 5000 FFR's sold. However, SPF is only up to 3000. Thus more exclusive.

If I had the garage space, I would have an FFR with a nice rev happy Boss 302 set up for racing around mountain roads, and a nice comfy 427 SPF to cruise in.

[john2456]

FFR5452, I believe Jim's post is spot on and speaks to the real world differences and facts that separate an FFR and SPF. Congrats to Jim for a very factual post without any drama. John

[cobrarob]

I think most FFR builders need to add up all of their receipts and I mean all before comemnting that an SPF is more expensive

I was seriously considering having an FFR Mark IV built for me instaed of buying an SPF as it sures sounds attractive based on the kit costs , but after you add in the engine , tranny , non-donor build parts , body work , paint equivalent to an SPF , etc. you are way way over the price of an SPF or at least way over what i bought my SPF for

And my SPF is holding its value nicely

[turbonut48]

Im a recent owner of a FFR. I have an acquaintance who has a SPF. BIG difference in finish and options.
BUT, Im more of a hands on, tinkerer. He doesnt even change his own oil.
MINE has 530 hp, NO heat.A/C,PB,P steering, radio. Its a brute.
HIS has all of that.
I would probably enjoy his, he probably would hate mine.

I think each serves its own niche market.

The Nut

[Katroy#2]

Since I am the former owner of a beautiful FFR Spyder GT and currently have a Superformance Daytona Coupe AND a CAV-GT40 I think I have a little perspective on this. The FFR CAN be better than any of them, it depends totaly on the build. For the lazy or less inclined both the Superformance and the CAV come as rollers, less the drive train. So you get what you put into it. Either time or $$.

[Roy Hewson]

I think John Card and Katroy hit the mark. I myself was going to buy an SPF coupe because my mechanical and car experience was minimal. In the end after researching both I decided to jump of the cliff and build an FFR coupe. It took me 2.5 years and a lot pizza and time with friends. I built a car that I know my way around in and on. The satisfaction of having built it is (to me) very rewarding. The combination of the build and the driving it are the total ackage of FFR, It feels good when people ask, to say I built it. Financially FFR is cheaper if you build it yourself (I have 50K in mine, non-donner) To pay someone to build an FFR for you I would imagine could cost as much as an SPF. I now have 20,000 miles of smiles on the coupe. this has been done in 3 summers.
You can't go wrong with either if you follow your passion and want to enjoy a vehicle that few have had the joy of, the SPF more civilized the FFR a truly visceral experience.
Roy

[R Edgar]

I had my gokart checked out by one of the top ten custom car builders in the nation - they have won 3 Riddler awards and 2 AMBR awards.

They also had a Superperformance in their shop at the same time. They could not believe how much better overall the FFR was compared to the Superperformance.

Made me feel good to hear them say that.

Roy from Springboro

[Quikshft]

Superformance is better because of the Shelby connection?

I own neither at this time, but would the FFR be welcome at a Shelby event? Or would the SPF be welcomed at an FFR event? I was first attracted to this forum because I am hands on, and would likely build my own car. Even though I'm a long time Shelby admirer it was more about the "kind" of car the roadster is rather than who's name was associted with it. Did not keep very close track of the recent legal procedings but I suppose the entirety of folks who pursue ownership/driving of this type car are not one big happy family.

[chrisarella]

Originally Posted by Quikshft

...I suppose the entirety of folks who pursue ownership/driving of this type car are not one big happy family.

If not we should be though. We all love the look of the original Cobra, and we all seek out the combination of nostalgia, style, & performance that is found in these recreations. Whether you have the bank account to jump into a turnkey, or have the balls, drive, ability, and ambition to build your own, hopefully we all end up with our dream cars.

Truth be told, Carroll Shelby took another company's car and modified it in his own vision for a purpose. He has built his entire career on this principle of taking something that has potential, modifying it, and make it something truely special. I think FFR owners are doing the same EXACT thing. Too bad we can't fire all of the IP lawyers and just move on already. It would be more lucrative for all of us.

I am shooting to have a very comfortable daily driver that will have a modern drivetrain, modern reliability, sustainability, and be a force to recon with on a road course.

I don't know about the guys who only write a check, but I for one am looking forward to making my dream happen, and hopefully I’ll get to infect my kids with the car bug in the process. I know if I bought a turn-key my family and I would be happy with it, but if we build it we will love it!

My $0.02.

[Bill Hughes]

I built my MKII for about 40,000 out of pocket. I did everything myself except for paint and engine. I had Gordon do the engine because at that time I felt that he could do it for less, and I got a warranty! As for paint, I’ve painted before, but the prep of the FFR body looked like it was bets farmed out.
True, a SPF has better resale value, but I have something that the SPF owner does not, pride of craftsmanship, and a memory that only hands on can give.
We all make social networking connections with our cars. A SPF owner is a different social class than an FFR.
My car was built to suit my personal engineering philosophy. My FFR will never be finished. It will always be a work in progress.
I can make performance as good as I want. I look at the SPF as being limited. I don't like that square tube chassis.
The FFR is a piece of canvas for the advanced builder. Some FFR's are exquisite pieces of automotive are, some are pieces of crap.
Most SPF's are statements of the owner’s wallet.
About resale; I really don't care, I'll keep My MKII for as long as my grandfathers railroad pocket watch. The only issue with the FFR value was when I was setting up replacement value with the insurance agent.
The SPF guy can have Carroll Shelby's signature on his glove box, I car drive mine down to Maricopa AZ and get Gordon’s.
My roadster is my hobby, (one of several).


I don’t look down on the SPF guy, I kind of feel bad for him, makes me glad that I’m the fussy old codger that I am.

[advantec2000]

i think depend on what you are looking for, both are great car depending on what you are looking for. if you dont like the hassle of building then the superformance, but if you want to add or upgrade something then i would have to say ffr.

[JAM1775]

I'd prefer not to get into brand bashing. I defended my FFR ownership for many years in my club which consisted of 15+ SPF owners. I owned my MKI for 12 years. It had a screamin B&P'd 351W ...no heat...no defrost...old school 4 link..with drums in back...A-frame lower CA's .....420 on motor and 522 on a 100shot of nitrous to the tires. The motor was polished, neat.....tough looking...all business. My DNA was all over that little FFR. I sold it in Sept. 2010 after a divorce.

I owned a beauty GT500 for a while but longed for the Cobra...once again.

In August 2011 I bought my old friend's SPF. 392 stroker with a Paxton 540RWHP. Fit & finiosh = awesome. This car is a stunner with everything part in the engine compartment polished like a mirror. When I open the hood at cruise nights my buddy's creative talents shined like the briefcase opening scene in Pulp Fiction ! He never worked on his SPF...but he was the director of workmanship from Autometer carbon fibers to the chromed Accusmp up front ! Beauty ! He had 75K+ in that SPF built in 2000.

But guess what. My beautiful SPF does not feel like a race car. My FFR did. I learned tons about SPF consistency in components after requiring replacement of a CV Boot and slave cylinder in my SPF. I was a do it yourself guy....not a check writer. Let's say my eyes were truly opened as I scanned the Napa websites finding part #'s from fellow SPF owners were NOT the same over the years as my car....thank God for Napa !
I though I had a T-Bird rear as they were used for years. I knew the recent SPF's have Dana rears. Mine ? Late 90's/early 2000's Ford Explorer......Yup....the only CV Boots that matched despite one SPF dealer sending my 6 different cv boots because he said they changed over the years.

This SPF is an awesome crusing machine with big power. ...a real beauty with big 3" mufflers fed by larger comp 1 7/8" headers. But I will be listing this beauty for sale within a week or two to build....another FFR...or buy a good solid used FFR /incomplete kit as a base. I want back the lightness....rigid tube chassis and race car feel I had in my FFR. And ...hopefully with the money left over I will drop a cheapo 6cyl Mustang or little 302 powered Falcon next to it in the garage.
Yikes ! Did I say Falcon ? Yeah...all black/chromed.... little 302/T5....Craigers...what the heck !

My buddy owned a Classic Roadster mid 11 sec Cobra for 11 years. His DNA iwas alos ALL over that roadster. On impulse...he sold that CR and JUMPED on a deal for a 351w powered SPF......within weeks before I bought my buddy's SPF. He has been saying he will sell the SPF in spring. He just ordered the FFR dvd.
To each his own heh ?

[RE63]

I am not a brand basher either, Here is my take on FFR

1) its not a car, it is a community. one which in general, does not judge. "my car as better than yours." are words I have never heard at any event show, breakfast, coffee stop or any other time FFR's have gathered.

2) Without exception every FFR guy(or gal) I have ever met was a car entusiest who was inspired by the lure of the body shape and the historic significance, rather than Bragging rights. SOme do want Bragginfg rights for highest horseopower, but hey, most of thema re guys!!

4) FFR is there if you need them, one call away. They have always been helpful, supportive and care about you and your build and respect you and your ideas.

[Stoker]

I've never seen a SPF at an autocross. How do they perform?

[SunDude]

Originally Posted by Stoker

I've never seen a SPF at an autocross. How do they perform?

I dunno. We're too busy standing on the sidelines, telling everyone that it's "not a kit."

[Magnus]

A Subperformance has really nice skin.

I guess for the money I spent on my FFR I could have easily bought an SbPF but I chose the FFR because I felt that the round-tube design was better. I also figured that there would be more support available with an FFR if I ever needed it.

[STFU]

Originally Posted by cobrarob

I think most FFR builders need to add up all of their receipts and I mean all before comemnting that an SPF is more expensive

I was seriously considering having an FFR Mark IV built for me instaed of buying an SPF as it sures sounds attractive based on the kit costs , but after you add in the engine , tranny , non-donor build parts , body work , paint equivalent to an SPF , etc. you are way way over the price of an SPF or at least way over what i bought my SPF for

And my SPF is holding its value nicely

I was at Barrett-Jackson last month, Superformance was there with one of their coupes. I asked about it, the guy quoted me $99k before the engine.

I donno... I think I could have a pretty wild ride in a FFR coupe by the time I got to half the price of the SPF coupe.

[SunDude]

Originally Posted by STFU

I was at Barrett-Jackson last month, Superformance was there with one of their coupes. I asked about it, the guy quoted me $99k before the engine.

I donno... I think I could have a pretty wild ride in a FFR coupe by the time I got to half the price of the SPF coupe.

The coupes are no longer Superformance cars. They're CSX9000-series Shelby Daytona Coupes, which partly explains the big price.

The same guy who owns Superformance also runs Shelby Distribution USA, which is why you would've seen them under the same umbrella at B-J.

[CobraEarl]

Ive been around both. Have friends who own both. Dennis Olthoff, a SPF Dealer in NC is a friend of mine.

They are both great cars.

I have always called the SPF a "doctor's Kit Car".

The doctor walks in, likes the red/white on the best, his Trophy wife says, HONEY I LOVE the blue/white one. He lays down a big deposit picks out his engine/transmission and Loves his blue/white COBRA he built.

Jeff Collins of Whitby Motor Cars is also a VERY GOOD friend of mine. He will build you a great car and you do get to pick out a lot more options. Of course his are not cheap. But, if it breaks and is anyway his possible fault, he will fix it.

Personally, I prefer the FFR as I could afford to build it my way. and after over 40,000 miles and 10 years of ownership, I still love it and its NEVER let me down.

The SPF COUPEs Ive seen are beyond description but NOT CHEAP.

CobraEarl