I haven't kept up with Facebook. Is there any news about the roof? Soft-top, hard-top, ETA?
Really good questions... There has been zero news about any top -- last I heard it's still a removable fixed hardtop, but no one has seen more than the initial layup and that was months ago at this point. My ETA for shipment was with the 11/4/11 batch, but obviously the boatbuilder derailed that date by failing to make the molds and deliver the bodies on time. That set of frame pieces (and associated sub-kit) is still sitting around waiting on the bodies. We'll see what happens next week.
Bill, your list is pretty good -- and sobering when you think about it. Your headlight cost is extremely optimistic (closer to $250-300 from what I've seen), and your paint price could only be a DIY job. I suspect you already know all that! At least according to Mark, your glass estimates are high, but I expect that to vary locally for all of us. I could have sworn the first five all were promised the upgraded shocks and some other goodies as beta incentives earlier in this process (you know, pre-Facebook), but obviously that's not the case now. I'm not going to review 3600+ posts to find that right now!
Cheers, John
__________________
FFR1004105RD - world's first twin-turbo BMW V12-powered FFR Roadster
2011 Dodge 2500 Cummins 6.7L - biodiesel-fueled daily driver JHETTO: 2001 VW Jetta TDI, intended as G3F donor, FOR SALE
Last edited by dukegrad98; 12-15-2011 at 04:00 AM..
Really good questions... There has been zero news about any top -- last I heard it's still a removable fixed hardtop, but no one has seen more than the initial layup and that was months ago at this point. My ETA for shipment was with the 11/4/11 batch, but obviously the boatbuilder derailed that date by failing to make the molds and deliver the bodies on time. That set of frame pieces (and associated sub-kit) is still sitting around waiting on the bodies. We'll see what happens next week.
Bill, your list is pretty good -- and sobering when you think about it. Your headlight cost is extremely optimistic (closer to $250-300 from what I've seen), and your paint price could only be a DIY job. I suspect you already know all that! At least according to Mark, your glass estimates are high, but I expect that to vary locally for all of us. I could have sworn the first five all were promised the upgraded shocks and some other goodies as beta incentives earlier in this process (you know, pre-Facebook), but obviously that's not the case now. I'm not going to review 3600+ posts to find that right now!
Cheers, John
John you sound a little bitter I can't say I blame you at this point with all of the delays and what not. I thought Mark was supplying the wheels/tires/seats/and headlights, guess I missed something along the way. It doesn't seem like Mark lowered the initial price enough to cover the cost of these "extras" I do think you're right about the shocks and other upgrades to be included for the first five beta group. Guess he decided he needed to make a little more money. Because this has taken so much longer than he originally planned his overhead costs have got to be substantially higher.
__________________
As I always tell my boss,\"I can do anything with enough time and money.\"
--snip--
Bill, your list is pretty good -- and sobering when you think about it. Your headlight cost is extremely optimistic (closer to $250-300 from what I've seen), and your paint price could only be a DIY job. I suspect you already know all that!
--snip--
Cheers, John
I think most of the prices are optimistic. Body work & paint by me of course.
Late happens. I personally think that late happens because a product in development gets more complicated(and usually better I would hope). However we got here we are here...and hopefully you are enjoying the first beta builds both through john's and clint's blogs as well as my own work on the tdi and vr6turbo demo cars on facebook.
The process had/has its hiccups but the creation of smyth performance a few years ago and the long road to a sale of FFR to Dave is about to happen...good news for all involved but yes a bit distracting at times.
Duke grad you are in a tough spot as a beta customer who is having the car built by Wayne...my dialogue with Wayne is important as the beta builders are helping me refine the build experience. John p. and Clint f. Are poster betas and were chosen for their incredible enthusiasm and skill sets. We all are in the betas debt.
Having said that I am thrilled to finally have a set of molds as well as the fixtures to manufacture this car. That is the heart of the kit car business...molds and a frame jig...it is actually a simple business in the end. So however we got here let's have some fun.
Re the lower price of 7900 bucks for the betas, I figured 300 bucks for a local front k frame and knukles off a crashed jetta, 300 for the seats off eBay, 300 for the celica/cobalt lights, and 1100 bucks for tires/wheels. The betas still get the excellent height adjustable coilovers(i can't afford to include the 1400.00 ones that is true...)and the hard top is included. The only thing you have left is the glass from the neon and the glass for the hard top and I just didn't want to ship glass.
I think a full g3f kit with a hard top for less than the price of a mendeola transmission is a screaming deal and guarantees the beta guys having fun with this build at a price that makes the finished car a liquid asset when done.
I will shoot a pic of the raw body the moment it is in house today. If there is something that any of you value highly(such as bodywork etc.) and you want it as part of the beta program let me know....I am good at finding ways to say thanks. Also, if any beta wants to help to the degree that the first two guys have...let me know what your plan is to help the project and you can probably get a free truck kit too
Cheers,
Mark
__________________
Smyth Performance.... Go Green, Go Fast
I have sold Factory Five Racing to my brother Dave as of Jan 2012. I remain a huge FFR fan and founder but have moved on to VW Jetta based kits and the continued growth of Local Motors as my primary focus.
Go Green, Go Fast!
Last edited by marksmith; 12-16-2011 at 04:55 PM..
Went through the ebay listings for the led halo celica lights and the cobalt leds..each sets you back 120 bucks after shipping from what I see.
i will check up on the seats when I get back from a boston track meet...(just checked...the seat/racing belt combo is about 275 a pair)
the body came in about an hour ago...looks nice even raw.
No news on the top as there isnt any news...we committed to the design a long time ago and tooled up the windshield frame and correponding top framework for the shape we showed. the window bondo/fairing is not done as it sits being the last thing people need to build their cars.
mark
__________________
Smyth Performance.... Go Green, Go Fast
I have sold Factory Five Racing to my brother Dave as of Jan 2012. I remain a huge FFR fan and founder but have moved on to VW Jetta based kits and the continued growth of Local Motors as my primary focus.
Go Green, Go Fast!
Last edited by marksmith; 12-16-2011 at 07:08 PM..
No posts for almost a month What's everybody doing? No parts? No time? Dukegrad, have you still not received your kit? I thought Mark was starting to ship more kits?
__________________
As I always tell my boss,\"I can do anything with enough time and money.\"
I hate it when the thread goes dead, too. The constant intellectual popcorn over on Facebook has more or less killed the high-protein meaty diet of this thread, but I've said that ad nauseum already! To answer your question -- nothing has been received yet on my end. I'm doing my best to maintain a zen attitude about it and to leave Mark Smith alone in his warehouse (and I know he likes that part). I can't say that I've lost interest or quit caring, but I have forcibly realigned myself to have very low expectations on the timeline. I had a great conversation with Mark back somewhere right before Christmas, and things were "days away" from shipping at that point. I haven't heard anything since, but I also haven't made any calls. Wayne and I are just kind of waiting on Mark to be ready to coordinate shipping the kit to us.
From what I can decipher from the dang Facebook posts (when they aren't talking about that bloody truck again), the G3F front mold is finally finished. It looks like Mark is going to make a couple of one-off noses from it himself, then send it to the fiberglass guys for "mass production." I doubt he'll ship any new kits until he has all of the body panels to crate up together -- otherwise he just spends a ton of money on later shipments. He's already stuck with that for John P and Clint. I think I'm indifferent as to whether I get Mark's nose or a boatbuilder's nose; my (admittedly very limited) experience with fiberglass tells me that either one will need a lot of work before paint. I'm not into vinyl wrap -- plastic wrap belongs over chicken breasts on styrofoam trays at the grocery store.
I definitely have not lost interest in the car or the project, but I admit I've come close to bailing out once or twice. These days I mostly try not to think about it. If this once again stretches into a few more months, I'll probably just cash out my fully-paid deposit that Mark is holding and sell (or drive) my donor that's been parked since summer of '10. Alternatively, I could sell my slot, kit, and donor to someone else that wants a pro to bolt it together and deliver it turnkey. (In the kit car world, Mark will tell you that "late happens." In my world, late is malpractice and you can lose your job and license for it! He and I have distinctly different views as a result. I am trying to adjust myself to his view, at least for G3F purposes.) Now that we're somewhere around a year and a half late, I've forced myself to quit sweating the timeline and focus on other piston-powered projects that don't require anything from Wareham. I've got a few ideas cooking in the back of my mind, but for now I'm still in line for the G3F whenever it is ready to ship.
Cheers, John
__________________
FFR1004105RD - world's first twin-turbo BMW V12-powered FFR Roadster
2011 Dodge 2500 Cummins 6.7L - biodiesel-fueled daily driver JHETTO: 2001 VW Jetta TDI, intended as G3F donor, FOR SALE
Hey John, glad to see you are hanging in there. I totally understand and agree with you. Perhaps one of the worst things people do is fail to manage expectations. Expectations greatly shape the overall experience...and we all know this first hand. Simply go out to eat dinner. When they tell you the wait is 30 minutes, you don't always like it, but say ok...then when (if) they seat you in 20 minutes, your expectations are exceeded and you are happy...that influences your overall opinion of the dining experience. However, if you end up waiting longer, say 45 minutes...you are constantly looking at your watch, you are not happy before you even sit down. It puts you in the mindset to look for other things (the food took too long, service was not as good as usual, food was not quite up to par, etc.) that failed to meet expectations. The trick is setting expectations that you can meet or beat without making them so poor that you upset people (like saying it will be 2 hrs until we can get you a table- to which you will surely leave and eat elsewhere.
While I am not on the beta list, I too have lost a lot of the enthusiam I had in the early days. I hope he gets your kit out soon to rekindle your fire and so the rest of us can see what the G3F will really be.
John, I think you have put yourself in a great state of mind. Relax, wait, and if you need a fix give Mark a call. At the expense of slowing him down I've done plenty of R&D projects myself, and there are always delays especially with limited resources. But that doesn't make you feel any better about it.
KC Wildcat, that is a great analogy. In my business we stick to under-promise & over-deliver. Your customers may not be happy with the leadtime in the beginning, but they are always happy with an early delivery.
Obviously Mark way over promised (you'd think he would stop that by now, ever the optimist I suppose). I figure he's just spread himself too thin. Its hard to physically build a project yourself, and keep an eye on your outside vendors too (the fiberglass guys). At this point I guess it is what it is. On that same note, he's saying he will have the beta truck done by spring. Did he already forget how long it took to do the body on the G3F? I'm guessing a year from this spring.
Now, what are the in-progress beta builders up to?
__________________
As I always tell my boss,\"I can do anything with enough time and money.\"
I can say I haven't touch my beta in over a month. There are some little things I could be doing but I've had a couple of emergency projects come up that took my time. Now that it's winter, unless I can dedicate several hours at a time, I won't try to heat up the garage. That keeps me from spending a little time here and there. I'm hoping I can put some time in this weekend but we'll see if that actually happens.
There's no doubt that a box or two of parts would fire me up.
I'm still waiting for the call to come pick up my kit, expecting it any month now. In the mean time I've been working my tail off with 2 major work projects going. I've also used the time to do some upgrades in the garage - sheetrock and paint, a new lift, this weekend the air plumbing goes in.
I've been gathering bits and picking away at the motor also. The original plan was to hone the cylinders and reassemble with new rings, bearings, seals, etc. but when I got around to honing I found the ridge just too big to hone out. The block is in the machine shop now being bored out. The bad news is this means new oversized pistons. The good news is that since I'm getting new pistons they may as well be turbo pistons so I'm getting forged Mahle 82mm pistons with oversized dishes - getting me a 9.0:1 CR, so no need for a head spacer. It should be ready for next week so I still may have my motor before I have the rest of the kit.
Just back from a week kayak camping trip in the Everglades, now catching up here. Sounds like body parts are close to coming, and I bet the remaining parts will be in the same crate. Good news looking at some of the body pics, that is a sweet nose. Sorry about having to bore the engine Bill, but it will definitely be a stormer when you are done, I bet. Gonna get the sand and bugs out of my kayak, gear and ears, then back to being a car guy. Clint, you make me realize how lucky we are down here: it was 41 degrees out yesterday a.m., and I thought I'd freeze! No more complaints about temps, I promise. Back to the low 70's today, the natural order is restored...
Smyth G3F Beta-build: 1999.5 Jetta TDI donor, Malone Stage 2 Tune and injectors. Love my Roadster; the G3F will be my daily driver. Build details here:http://www.g3f-jlphil.blogspot.com/
Here is a question for the forum. I've been waiting on parts to proceed with my beta because I want to use exactly what Mark is supplying in the kit. Does everyone agree with that approach? I ask because there are several things I can modify myself, source myself, etc. but that I'm holding off on. The result is that my build is taking longer but should represent what future builders will encounter.
These are great prices. If I consider saving over $2000.00 in gas every year vs. my V8 gas hogs, the kit is free in approximately 3.75 years at today's gas prices. When I only have one Kid in college, I want one.
Not to hijack too much, but FFR won't be the same without Mark. I wish he would stay as Mark and Dave are the YIN and YANG of FFR. Its going to be like removing the YIN from the YANG.
What kind of parts are we talking about? Have you talked to Mark about it?
Yes I have. Most of the parts are the little bits and pieces that he forgot about when he built his alpha car. As he builds Kim's VR6, he's getting all that stuff together. There is a growing pile of parts as he finalizes all that stuff. I did request a few small things that will let me finish a few of the sub-systems.
Again, it's not like I couldn't figure something out and purchase the parts myself but I'm trying to approach this project as a new builder would. The goal of this product is to be relatively straight forward for someone that has never built a car before. Ideally, the pics that the betas as taking as we document our builds will end up in a manual. It would be nice if the pictures would match the parts the builder is holding in their hand.
These are great prices. If I consider saving over $2000.00 in gas every year vs. my V8 gas hogs, the kit is free in approximately 3.75 years at today's gas prices. When I only have one Kid in college, I want one.
Not to hijack too much, but FFR won't be the same without Mark. I wish he would stay as Mark and Dave are the YIN and YANG of FFR. Its going to be like removing the Ying from the Yang.
Iski
Don't confuse base kit price with finished car price. A GTM costs $20k for the kit but is rarely finished for under $50k. Finished prices on this kit will be closer to $20k.
Yes I have. Most of the parts are the little bits and pieces that he forgot about when he built his alpha car. As he builds Kim's VR6, he's getting all that stuff together. There is a growing pile of parts as he finalizes all that stuff. I did request a few small things that will let me finish a few of the sub-systems.
Again, it's not like I couldn't figure something out and purchase the parts myself but I'm trying to approach this project as a new builder would. The goal of this product is to be relatively straight forward for someone that has never built a car before. Ideally, the pics that the betas as taking as we document our builds will end up in a manual. It would be nice if the pictures would match the parts the builder is holding in their hand.
I think you've answered your own question, and you have the right answer IMHO. You have to wait on Mark like the rest of us.
Iski, you can not use the base price of the kit vs your current V8 gas comsumption. You would have to factor in the total price of the running G3F (kit + donor)...so probably closer to $20k. Or you could figure out the gas mileage of a G3F vs a base Jetta TDI (the car is several hundred pounds lighter) - but that is probably not going to be a significant amount to give you a high ROI.
Has Mark ever published an actual weight of the G3F??? He was originally talking of making it 800-1000 lbs lighter than stock Jetta. Then it was 800 lbs lighter, last number I saw was 600 lbs lighter... this thing is getting heavier and heavier.
__________________
Jim
Present toys;
2005 GMC Sierra 1500
2002 VW TDI Golf- 251K miles- 56mpg- 135 hp/245 ft-lbs, VNT-17, PP520 nozzles, RC3+ tune (which sucks, looking for better tune).
2001 BMW R1100RT
1967 P400- Restoration to start in spring
1919 Harley Davidson- Retirement project
Future toys;
2001 VW TDI Jetta- 238K miles- stock.. for now. ---> 2011 G3F ---> maybe 2012 G3F, Beta #14-->#2-->#5-->To be sold!
Last I heard, it was 2400#-ish without the top. Since the top isn't done, no one knows the total weight. Also, Mark is just now getting production body panels so he may not even have all the parts to do a real weight measurement.
Last I heard, it was 2400#-ish without the top. Since the top isn't done, no one knows the total weight. Also, Mark is just now getting production body panels so he may not even have all the parts to do a real weight measurement.
Right - at this point it's just a guestimate. The car doesn't exist yet so it can't be weighed.
Mark, in case you're reading... Should I be at all concerned that the holiday card I sent to the Smyth Performance P.O. box just came back this weekend, marked "box closed, unable to forward, return to sender"? Yikes.
Cheers, John
__________________
FFR1004105RD - world's first twin-turbo BMW V12-powered FFR Roadster
2011 Dodge 2500 Cummins 6.7L - biodiesel-fueled daily driver JHETTO: 2001 VW Jetta TDI, intended as G3F donor, FOR SALE
John,
I guess you should have sent an e-card on Facebook. I have caved in and waste time on FB for the primary purpose of following progress of this project. It is utterly disappointing that that has become the ONLY source of updates. How much time would it take to check in here and help keep the betas motivated? I bailed on beta status for other reasons, but I can only imagine how frustrated you and other non-FB'ers must be. This epic thread has dwindled to not much more than a place to air out frustration over unrealized timelines. Parts are now starting to roll out the door at Smyth Performance, yet no information is being shared here with the 'core" group of buyers.
Mark,
I know you have been extremely busy with the transitions of FFR and Smyth, but please do not discount what you have created here. You have a loyal following that is starving for updates. I know you are hitting what seems to be a huge market at FB, but 99% of them are tire kickers!
And since you probably won't even see this for at least a few days:
....I bailed on beta status for other reasons, but I can only imagine how frustrated you and other non-FB'ers must be.
I wonder how many betas have bailed? There is you and Chris, and I did over a year ago. I decided to keep the Jetta stock for my daughter to use as her college car until she graduates next year. Since I expected the kit sometime last year, I dropped out of the program. I probably should have stayed since my kit (beta number somewhere in the 20's) wouldn't be ready till next year if Mark puts out 2 or 3 a month. Oh well, I still plan to build a G3F eventually so I'll continue to look in here occasionally and follow the builds.
I have caved in and waste time on FB for the primary purpose of following progress of this project. It is utterly disappointing that that has become the ONLY source of updates. How much time would it take to check in here and help keep the betas motivated? I bailed on beta status for other reasons, but I can only imagine how frustrated you and other non-FB'ers must be.
Go PAT's!
I caved and joined Wastebook a while back, it is still very frustrating that no details are being posted here so we don't have to dig through all the trash on FB to get a tiny glimpse of where this project is. I personally think FB has degraded this project to the point I am ready to join the others who have pulled the plug, for a variety of reasons, and given up on this project.
__________________
Jim
Present toys;
2005 GMC Sierra 1500
2002 VW TDI Golf- 251K miles- 56mpg- 135 hp/245 ft-lbs, VNT-17, PP520 nozzles, RC3+ tune (which sucks, looking for better tune).
2001 BMW R1100RT
1967 P400- Restoration to start in spring
1919 Harley Davidson- Retirement project
Future toys;
2001 VW TDI Jetta- 238K miles- stock.. for now. ---> 2011 G3F ---> maybe 2012 G3F, Beta #14-->#2-->#5-->To be sold!
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I can't say I blame you at this point with all of the delays and what not. I thought Mark was supplying the wheels/tires/seats/and headlights, guess I missed something along the way. It doesn't seem like Mark lowered the initial price enough to cover the cost of these "extras" I do think you're right about the shocks and other upgrades to be included for the first five beta group. Guess he decided he needed to make a little more money. Because this has taken so much longer than he originally planned his overhead costs have got to be substantially higher.
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