bad ball joint?

[ken schertzer]

10,000mi on my #69 ..The other day i noticed the grease fitting on the left upper control arm was gone, I thought vibration took it so, I tried to replace it and found the threads were f,d up. Upon further inspection, the top of the threaded plate/ cover with the part # on it was domed/ bent upwards and the ball was just under the plate, different from the other side, that was flat on top. and the ball was 1/8"+ deeper from the top. it looks as if the ball has pushed the fitting out of the cover plate.
It does not seem to be loose, but I just jacked it up and pulled on the wheel, so I don,t know what the %$#
It looks like a lot of welding on the area could have caused the heat treat in the ball joint to be effected.
anyone?
Ken

[Tim Whittaker]

Sounds like a possibly serious issue FFR should be alerted to. My FFR Cobra has a screw in ball joint with a tack weld on it. If I remember, the ones on the 33 are a press fit ?

Got pictures ?

The Cobra community found a number of issues with parts as the number of cars completed increased and the miles accumulated.

With a shock, steering, brake or suspension issue, FFR should be alerted.

[ken schertzer]

Tim
The ball joints are welded into the structure, it looks like they used a machined
steel coupling welded it to the arm tubes then- pressed?- the ball into it, then welded it into the coupling. I have a picture but, I could not get it uploaded. (new iMac, old user)
Ken

[Tim Whittaker]

Hi Ken,

I believe that is correct.

Whatever the process is, it's concerning and FFR should respond here.

If you can get a picture and send to me, I can post if you'd like. Actually, send one to FFR. They can post and respond as needed.

[geoffav]

Originally Posted by Tim Whittaker

Hi Ken,

I believe that is correct.

Whatever the process is, it's concerning and FFR should respond here.

If you can get a picture and send to me, I can post if you'd like. Actually, send one to FFR. They can post and respond as needed.

I agree with all that --- and post in the tech section of the OTHER place.

[Tim Whittaker]

Hard to tell what this issue here might be. I would think FFR would at least have some interest in a potentially serious issue with QA or manufacturing procedure ?

[1fastsedan]

I'm also interested to hear how they expect us to service those ball joints...

[mcwho]

Ken,

try using photobucket to upload you pics to, its free. if u try to upload directly you will only get a thumbnail.

[ken schertzer]

It took a while to figure it out. I think I got it. I'm not really a computer guy.
Excuse the rust coming through the powder coating+paint on top of the arms but it's the price of being a surfer and living near the 24/7 salt spray test lab, I guess.
Ken

[1fastsedan]

Originally Posted by ken schertzer

It took a while to figure it out. I think I got it. I'm not really a computer guy.
Excuse the rust coming through the powder coating+paint on top of the arms but it's the price of being a surfer and living near the 24/7 salt spray test lab, I guess.
Ken

Where are you at in San Diego? I'm in Mission Valley. I would love to see your hot rod. Any chance you're going to Cops and Rodders?

[mcwho]

I thought these were standard Ford Parts supplied by the same folks that make the ones for ford replacements. If thats the case it would be the vendors issue.

[1fastsedan]

Originally Posted by mcwho

I thought these were standard Ford Parts supplied by the same folks that make the ones for ford replacements. If thats the case it would be the vendors issue.

From my build notes (ie I read it somewhere and wrote it down a while ago), the ball joints are from:
upper ball joints : Chrysler New Yorker 79-82
lower ball joints: 87-98 Mustang

Doesn't mean it wasn't a manufacturing problem, but I betting they're aftermarket, not OEM parts.

[Arrowhead]

Wow, that is pretty messed up. I wonder if the ball joint was originally designed to be used as a lower joint - minimal load against the "hat" portion of the joint? In this configuartion, all the suspension load is on the top of the joint.

BTW Ken,

Any pictures of you car? Love to see if we haven't already.

Anyone priced the upper control arms w/ ball joints installed? Other than repainting/coating cost maybe it's not that bad just to replace the whole assembly. (I have noticed a slight loosness in my uppers as well)

[ken schertzer]

This morning,I had time to really check out the balljoint(s).I jacked up the front,put a steel beam under the tire levered up/down motion, and the left(domed top) is moving about .4" ,(just a guess) the rt side also about, .2-.3".
I thought the noises I'v been hearing were in my head? They both are shot.:sad
I may the problem, I changed out the shocks a while back to Strange engineering(QA1?) for a softer ride and picked the part# myself,(bad habit) and may have overlooked,or miss measured the extended length of the koni sooooo.... now i'v got a lot more to deal with! I'll dig out the stockers and see whats up.
Ken

[Arrowhead]

I really doubt changing the shock had any effect on the ball joints. Your ride hieght would have to be extremly low or high with a combination of some off roading to ruin the ball joints. I suppose some outrageous tire combination or incorrect alignment specification could wear them out prematurely also though (not that you have that).

[ken schertzer]

I could not find any problem with length -slightly longer, but I have raised the ride hight, after banging/scraping the bottom of the grill(e?). also added a skid plate under it,(the water hose needs some protection). Anyway, I called ffr and they are going to send a new set of upper a arms, and a return shipper tag to return the parts for inspection, to investigate the balls (joints).
Very good service! I do not have a picture of my car yet, it is boring, satin black paint over black gel coat with no primer, for the scratch resistance, dull looking surface. its a got the hard top on with black torq-thrust wheels. the most fun car to drive!

Ken

[KGB911]

Originally Posted by Arrowhead

Wow, that is pretty messed up. I wonder if the ball joint was originally designed to be used as a lower joint - minimal load against the "hat" portion of the joint? In this configuartion, all the suspension load is on the top of the joint.

BTW Ken,

Any pictures of you car? Love to see if we haven't already.

Anyone priced the upper control arms w/ ball joints installed? Other than repainting/coating cost maybe it's not that bad just to replace the whole assembly. (I have noticed a slight loosness in my uppers as well)

You are right on with your observation about the upper ball joint! Due to the design of the cantilever front suspension the upper ball joints are loaded in a direction they were not designed for and therefor failure will occur. There are numerous issues that play into this problem area. Welding ? This really is not an issue of effecting heat treat as the welds are just spot welds and of low heat,the real issue is that the welds are the only thing keeping the ball joint from pushing out of its socket in the control arm "Not Good" The lower ball joint is fine as it only has side loads as it is not weight bearing so the welds are just a pain in the butt when you need to replace them.
The bottom line is aftermarket screw in ball joints such as offered by Howe or Sweet should have been used for ease of service.As far as the upper goes, the proper option would have been to use a ball joint that Sweet makes that is designed for that directional load.
We have already changed the joints on HRL but in reality it was due to the excessive movement of the air ride.
One thing to consider is that when the upper joint fails it will not be catastrophic as it will just protrude upward and still be captured unlike the lower that failed on the Hot Rod Mag 6 day build car at Willow Springs in 09.
Dr. Ruth

[Tim Whittaker]

We can only hope FFR will receive Ken's and offer a recall to us all. It would be the right thing to do if that's what the issue turns out to be.

[racerboy1a]

This ball joint thing looks ominous. I wonder what's next?
Racerboy1a
#99

[Tim Whittaker]

FFR actually has it together pretty good. They do the right thing. It just takes them awhile sometimes .................

[ken schertzer]

Having retired after 35 years in the aerospace engineering test labs, being involved in failure analysis on commercial airplanes, in the heat treating, brazing, high temperature bonding of titanium,and all types of metals, I did not like the welds (not spot or tack) I see on the joints the since first day I saw them. If there is any heat treated steel inside, you may be annealing the steel by heat and slow cooling. As I learned in my materials classes. But the phase diagram of iron is very complicated to me, I never really got a good understanding! (otherwise they may have to paid me more $)
A lot of things on airplanes, the FAA just needs to know. Me, I just want to drive it!!
Ken

[mcwho]

I am not a suspension engineer, but looking the the front end suspension, it seems that most of the chassis weight is on the spring and shock assembly. Since the shock connects to the lower "A frame" and the weight is suppported by the spring and shock I wouldn't think that a majority of the load/weight would not be on that upper ball joint.

My view is that the weight is between the chasis where the shock/spring connects to the frame on the top and the Lower A frame on the bottom.

Am i missing something ?

[Arrowhead]

Originally Posted by mcwho

Am i missing something ?

Yes, the hot rod suspension is completely different from the roadster. The upper A arms carry all the weight

[ken schertzer]

I received my upper a arms, and I see a big processing improvement! I see no heating marks on the joint parts, still grease inside.They looked good enough to take them to a chrome plate shop, who did not like the joints being in them, so I let them talk me into letting them mask/seal off the entire ball area to plate the arms. I hope they don't look bad with paint on the ends, as the plating cost more than the arms! (I told them I lived at the beach and did not want to see rust in 6 mos. put lots of copper!!$$$) Have to wait 2 weeks.
Later
Ken

[sheephearder]

When I had my arms powder coated, the balls became lose. I got MOOG ones pressed in. The #'s are at the shop. Ican get them for you this afternoon if you like. Good luck. John

[ehansen007]

This may be the noise I'm hearing when I brake really hard? Sounds like a knock and I'm feeling it through the brake pedal.