Great to get confirmation of your success with the QA1's. Based on this thread and input from Dan R, I bought the shock and spring kit last fall, prior to the arrival of the car kit! The package from Dan fit very well, I 'adjusted' the stock brackets on the rear end a little to make sure I had enough clearance for the springs.
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#365
Build site www.33coyote.com
Coyote / TKO 600/3.55/Torsen
Wilwood 6 piston, bike fenders
Boyd's Tank, QA1 shocks & Springs
Speedhut gages
Rag top
"Never let physics or common sense get in the way of a good idea"
Great to get confirmation of your success with the QA1's. Based on this thread and input from Dan R, I bought the shock and spring kit last fall, prior to the arrival of the car kit! The package from Dan fit very well, I 'adjusted' the stock brackets on the rear end a little to make sure I had enough clearance for the springs.
I'm happy to hear that your rears fit well. I installed my QA1 set-up a few weeks ago and needed the steep-angle spring cap for all 4 shocks. You can also use QA1's 1-inch spring spacer too. In the rear, the spring perch was almost off the threads on the shock body with the flat cap and it had zero adjustability. In the front, the springs interfered with each other when installed "upside down." The problem with the front may be due to my mock-up springs (the Konis), my QA1 8 inchers are on back-order.
As many of you know I have spent a great deal of time on the suspension upgrades to these cars over the last 3 years. I was the 1st to install an IRS and the 1st to install air ride and one of if not the 1st to see the odometer hit 3000 miles. That being said I have never ridden in a FF33 with the supplied Koni's and therefore don't 1st hand know how they compare in ride quality. I do know that they are cheap looking and are hard to adjust and just downright ugly! The supplied springs have what appears to be good quality powdercoat but I have always questioned the spring rates and length.
I have sold many, many sets of the QA1 packages to FF builders and everyone has Raved about the quality and the ride of the kits.Up until now I had not had the opportunity 1st hand to Test drive the product on a FF33. What I have found out over the last year is that even though every FF33 kit has the same suspension (except HRL) there are many factors that change the specs needed for the shock and spring package. When it all comes down to the nuts & bolts of the build, personal preference in regards to wheels & tires and ride height ultimately effect the shock & spring needs. It is my opinion that ride height numbers specified in the manual are of little or no value as the tire sizes so greatly effect the height and your personal taste.
Tom runs Old School steelies with wide whites and likes his car high while Rumbles runs the current trend of Foose style wheels with a small sidewall. I recently sold one of my standard kits to Chuck Armstrong "Yellowbird" and found that longer fronts and rears were the answer for his beautiful Hot Rod with Kelsey Hayes wires. So that being said I have played with many packages and have come up with combinations that fit a specific need. Last but not least! tried out the Ultrarides on HRL for the 400 mile trip to the LA Roadster and Ricky and I adjusted them at every rest stop attempting to get that Magic Ride which I will include in another post!
Dr. Ruth
The fact that there is very little weight hanging over the the rear of the car is one cause of the rough ride. Combine that with low profile tires designed for a 5000lb car, and the result is a bone crusher.
I've been able to significantly improve the ride in the rear with 2 easy and free tweaks.
1. I carry a 75lb tool bag in the rear most section of the trunk
2. I played with the pressure in my tire until I found a decent balance between ride and performance. In the rear I dropped the pressure to 20lb. That made the tires work better on a 2400lb car. However, I did see about 2-3 mpg drop. The front tires are at 30lbs. I don't have power steering, so that is a good balance between steering wheel effort and ride comfort.
The tire pressure that you use will depend upon the tire/wheel combination you have.
These old hot rodder tricks are not as refined or elegant as Dr Ruth's suspension changes, but it's free!
I've installed the QA-1 spring/shock set from Dan Ruth and life is good again. I ended up with 12 in springs on the rear. Used a 2 3/4 in hole saw to cut away the bracket on the rear end which interferes with the spring.
I'm now having a "Spring Sale"
2 9" QA 1 springs as supplied by Breeze
Complete set of springs/shocks that were supplied with the car.
2 HAL -12-175-350 springs (QA-1) from Summit
2-HAL-9-450 springs (QA-1) from Summit
Tom,
I used the 9" 450# on the front and the 12" 175-350# on the rear. I also rmodified the lower shock mounts (frt. & rear) to raise the ride height without preloading the springs excessively. I have a ride height 6 1/2" at rear of frame and 6" at the front where the frame starts to taper inward. Shock valve set at the lowest setting right now. The ride is so much better. I can hardly believe that the shocks could make that much improvement in the ride. I will comtinue to experiment with valve setting even tho I can't see it improving anymore for street use. I may even try a softer rear spring later to soften up some of the huge frost heaves we have on our fine michigan roads.
Hi CJ,
Currently I have my QA1s set on the 2nd to softest setting. Full soft was good for the city streets but a bit too soft for highway speeds. #2 helped to settle the car down over dips, etc on 4 lane highway and interstates with hardly any noticeable change at city street speeds.
It may end up that I have the fronts set differently from the rears, but haven't fiddled all that much yet. I may want to add another click on the rears while leaving the fronts alone.
I've signed up for Northwoods Shelby Club's weekend at Road America (only Sunday, however) and plan on seeing what settings are good for a smooth, 4 mile, 14 corner road course. Last time I drove it there I still had the original springs with the add-on helper springs. It will be interesting to see how the progressive springs act at the rear of the car.
Every mile I drive the car with the QA1s make me smile. It's not quite an MX5 Miata ride, but it's a lot closer now.
Thanks for the comments,
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Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Hi Chuck,
Yes, I'm using the exact same springs as you. After talking to the RideTech guys I think we could get away with a softer rear spring. Maybe a 250#/In linear rear spring would be a good compromise. If you dropped down any further than that probably you'd want to add an anti-sway bar for cornering. Comfy on the straights and controlled in the corners.
I figured the 175/350 progressive spring at the rear would soften up the ride reasonably and still corner pretty well. Also, it saved me adding an anti-sway bar so far.
Best regards,
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Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Many of you have acquired Kits from me and found the upgrade to a High Quality shock & spring combination was worth the expense and some have gone the trial & error method and still have not found the combination. So here is the bottom line! The typical FF33 weighs 2500 lbs with a variety of drivetrains and is as close to 50-50 as you are going to get. Fill the trunk with tools and the tank to the top and you might have 50 lbs. more to the rear, it is very well done on the distribution end of things! The motion ratio of the front suspension is quite different from the normal Hot Rod due to the cantilever design but the rear is quite conventional in nature. By improving the dampening quality and installing longer springs in both the front and rear we have improved the ride substantially.We have also improved the ride by going softer on the spring rates but that has created another challenge of sorts. To have your cake and eat it to I have come up with a sway bar kit that finishes off the ride package. One must remember that sway bars only effect the chassis in roll and don't make the ride harsher but just resist load from one side to the other.
With our packages the number one effect on the ride is indeed the tire combination you choose, Choose wisely!
Dr. Ruth
Road America, August, 2012, Northwoods Shelby Club
I realilzed this AM that I never wrote a report on my track experience on the new QA1 Shocks.
At the track, above 100 MPH I found that the street settings for the QA1s were a bit soft and the car floated a bit. (street settings were one click from full soft) After trial and error, I found that four clicks from full soft were just about ideal for the track. (Note: about 9 clicks from full soft are about the same as the Koni's at their "full soft" setting)
Here's a series of photos taken through the rather technical "Canada thru Mitchel" turn series. These show the car transitioning from the exit of Canada Corner (turn 12) through the exit of Turn 13 (Mitchel Corner). The speed is high (top end of 3rd gear) and ranges from around 70MPH to 90MPH in this series. Oh, and it's uphill, too.
Note that body roll is not high, suspension transition is very smooth and the ability to point the car at the entry, apex and exit all are excellent.
I could drive this series with the Koni's just fine, but I paid a heavy price when I drove the car on the street. The QA1's are civilized on the street and can be set for track days such as this and perform very well. Thanks go out to Dan Ruth on his suggested shock choices.
Best regards, Tom
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Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Last edited by Tom Veale; 03-15-2013 at 06:42 PM..
Tom You da Man!
I have installed a Sway bar in the FF33 and can't wait for a track Day! I will have kits available soon! The QA 1s are selling like Hot cakes.
Thanks
Dr. Ruth
Tom You da Man!
I have installed a Sway bar in the FF33 and can't wait for a track Day! I will have kits available soon! The QA 1s are selling like Hot cakes.
Thanks
Dr. Ruth
Dan
Which end will your sways be for. Front/Back or both??
3 link 4 or IRS??
Should be the ideal addition to the coil over package you sell.
Dale
Folks, The '33 drives Very well. If you get a chance to take yours to do some track days, you're going to have a ball. Here's some more film strips...........................
This series shows Turn Five, an 80° Left that needs to be taken at about 40-45MPH.
At the top of the hill and about 1/4 mile before Turn Five #007 is rolling at about 125MPH or so. You need to be deep in the brakes and downshifting from 5th to 3rd gear before your turn-in.
Then it's steady thottle through the Apex......
If done right, you then start to squeeze on the gas and head for the turn exit.
Then it's squirt up the hill toward the bridge. From turn-in to the top of the hill and the next brake
point is all done in 3rd gear in the '33 (3.55:1 rear gears).
Oh, and don't forget to brake hard under the Bridge! There's a blind Left (Turn 6) just out of sight!
Can you tell I have Spring Fever?
Best regards, TV
(Next is Turn's 6 and 7)
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Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Last edited by Tom Veale; 03-15-2013 at 06:55 PM..
This next series picks up where the last one left off. These show the exit of Turn 6, a very tight, blind Left, the transition to the turn-in for Turn 7, the apex and just beyond.
First you nearly run out of room on the right hand side of the car exiting 6 and then have to
move completely over to the far left. (note the Mustang is right at 6's Exit in the second frame)
Next you start to aim the car toward Turn 7's apex on the right. This is a huge sweeping
right hander with excellent room at the exit and a down hill run to Turn 8.
I'm usually in 4th Gear here and at full throttle from before the exit to deep near Turn 8.
Next up, Turn 8.................................
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Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Heavy braking occurs before the hard Left which is Turn 8. There's now a big gravel trap
on the outside of the turn, but it's best not to use that as your Braking Point!
Your eyes are 'up and left' when starting the turn-in. It's open and you can see the exit,
which is your goal.
Once past the apex of T-8 the car drifts toward the rumble strips on the right. Here your next effort is to get set up for the Carousel turn which comes up almost immediately.
Next, the huge Carousel Turn..........
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Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Most drivers I've watched set up for the Carousel in about the middle of the track just
before the Sargento Bridge. This is partially because the turn is huge, so you don't
need to be all the way to the Left entering it. It's partially because you're asking for
someone to tuck inside of you if you're that far left. I usually position the car with
about a half car width between the right side of the car and the inside paint line.
I've heard people describe the Carousel as a "double apex" turn, but my personal
way of driving it is as a single, very late apex. There's FIA curbing on the inside of
the turn way around and down hill, just before the road straightens out. That's
the Apex. So, you wait and wait and wait and then wait some more and finally you
see it. It's more than 180° around from the turn-in, past the apex to the exit of this huge, fast sweeper.
All that time you're car is in a high speed and controlled 4 wheel drift. Once you can see the Apex, you start to accelerate and draw the car tight to the inside as there's a compression dip in the road right at the apex which gives good tracking.
In the last two frames, note the posture of the '33 vs the Torino following me. This is where light cars like Factory Five's '33, Challenge Series Roadsters, Street Roadsters, etc really shine. Heavy cars generally don't like the Carousel as it just scrubs and overheats their tires. Remember, you're traveling at between 70 and 80 MPH even on street tires here!
The Carousel can be taken in 4th gear as it is very fast, mildly banked and downhill. The 5.0L pushrod Ford has plenty of torque to pull out of the turn as you accelerate toward the infamous "Kink."
Sorry, no photos of the Kink. You'll just have to experience that one by yourself!
Next up is a series of Turn 14, the last one before Start/Finish............
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Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
For almost all cars, Turn 14 is the most important on the track. It is immediately followed
by the Start/Finish straight which is both an uphill run and nearly 3/4 of a mile long. If
done correctly, it improves your rate of climb up a 110' hill and your top speed well past
Start/Finish. One bobble at 14 and you curse yourself all the way to Turn One. Turn 14
is taken in 3rd gear in the middle of the RPM range. You shift to 4th gear before the base of
the big hill after the exit.
The turn-in for 14 is one of the latest Apexs I've ever driven at any track. You literally drive
until you run out of road and then finally turn right. Visibility is pretty good all the way to
the exit, so you keep your eyes up and to the right, looking past the apex.
Once past the Apex, you're accerating hard and driving straight at the end of the FIA curbing on
your left. The more speed you get on this flat before the big hill, the better your top speed.
Off in the distance, beyond the ambulance in the last frame, you can see the hill between Turns 5 and 6.
Northwoods Shelby Club runs three events each year. One at Road America here in Wisconsin,
one at Blackhawk Farms, near Rockford, IL and one at Gingerman Raceway in southwestern Michigan.
All three tracks are educational and challenging. Here's more information on NWSC: Northwoods Shelby Club -
Winter's long here in WI, so I hope you've enjoyed watching me attempt to thaw out!
Best regards, TV (Fastest Guy with White Walls!)
Road America's Track Map:
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Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Last edited by Tom Veale; 03-15-2013 at 06:48 PM..
Tom:
Love the descriptions of Road America's turns. I can relate to every detail but I don't see the pics or attachments or links to them.
Even in a Honda CRX ITA with all of about 110hp the "kink" is about a 100mph 5th gear "pucker factor turn". I never did have the confidence to take it flat out. I always gave that little "security lift" to make sure I got through ok because if you screw it up you are in deep s__t.
The last race I did at RA, another CRX got it wrong and hit the wall on both sides of the track.......totaled....big hits.....driver walked away fortunately.
Keep up the great work.
Racerboy1a
#99 347, TKO, 3-link, coupe
PS: What brake package do you have? I'm on the stock FFR/Mustang brakes with soft Porterfield pads. I have only gokarted so far. Do I need more brakes?
Will you have a kit for the 4-link as well or just the 3? What is your site for parts?
Your choice of trailing arms does not effect the sway bar kit. As far as my site you can go to innovativerodding.com. I appolgize for the fact it is not up to date but I am just to busy to add the updates.
Dr. Ruth
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