Tried to install the QA1 12-175-350 springs on my car today. No way the 12in will work without cutting into a bracket on the 8.8 rear end. Should have tried them before I power coated them. Quess i'll try the 10in next. looks like it will fit on the rh but not sure about the lh side.
The 10s worked for me without any modification. Tight fit, but they are on. Don't know what will happen when I take the car off the jack stands on onto wheels.
I can say that if you haven't installed them an option is to return them for the 10" 325lb springs. Then you won't have to mod anything and the ride is great! I tried them both and the problem is that the 12" were so tight, I pretty much destroyed the powdercoat trying to get them to fit so I couldn't return them. Just my experience.
I'm sure I am telling people how to suck eggs and asking silly questions here but has anyone just tried playing with tyre size to improve ride comfort and NVH? Say a 15 or 16in rim with 50 profile tyres?
Still in the planning stages here and personally I prefer smaller wheels so if I can avoid buying different suspension components and get around the NVH issue with chubby tyres then that would be great.
Luckily here in Western Australia the roads are generally in good condition!
I'm sure I am telling people how to suck eggs and asking silly questions here but has anyone just tried playing with tyre size to improve ride comfort and NVH? Say a 15 or 16in rim with 50 profile tyres?
Still in the planning stages here and personally I prefer smaller wheels so if I can avoid buying different suspension components and get around the NVH issue with chubby tyres then that would be great.
Luckily here in Western Australia the roads are generally in good condition!
Not at all! I know what you mean but I was going for certain look as are many others here. These cars were built to handle so naturally high performance tires with a lower profile help in that category. I don't mind. What is amazing is that the car is so light (especially the rear end) that even a slight change in spring can warrant some merit. I feel a big difference over the stock spring with those 10" 325 spring as it has taken that harsh edge off bumps but still handles amazing! The front could use the same treatment for these southern california freeways that's for sure. Dan Ruth really knows what he's talking about. But I really do like the rear setup and look now so I'm happy. It's all the eye of the BEERholder.
Hehe yeah I think us car sorts can put up with a more 'sporting' ride than others in the name of the good handling.
If my track experience is much to go by a light car like the 33 shouldnt lose to much in the handling department with a smaller diameter but bigger profile tyre...performance cars are all about compromise though especially if you have a look you are trying to achieve. I think I will end up with a small set of rims for track work and something flashy for the road. I will update in...errr...quite some time.
When the car was first assembled I drove it on some 18" rims for a while. I also did some driving on some 17" rims. (rims/tires were from other cars)
I settled on 16" rims with 50 series tires not so much for ride or handling reasons, but because I like the taller sidewall "look" and wanted enough there for white walls.
I started with relatively low tire pressures initially, but find it doesn't really change the ride much. Tire wear on softer pressures probably wouldn't be good, however. So, I run roughly 34lbs pressure at all four corners. So far with around 6000 miles the tire wear is minimal.
Best regards, Tom
__________________
Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Installed a set of the double adjustable QA1 Proma Star shocks on one of the cars I am working on. On this kit I used the bearing mount ends due to the race based concept of this particular car but I have been outfitting all the other kits I have sold with the polyurethane bushings so as to better match the other pivots on the front and rear suspension on the FF33. I modify the shock kits I sell so the front shocks are upside down and the rears right side up so the adjustment knobs and spanner nuts are easily accessible. This particular owner choose to use the FF springs on the front.
Dan
Dan,
I have installed the 9" 450 front and 10" 275-425 QA1 springs on the Koni shocks. I made up the adjuster nut about 1/4" past snug prior to installing back on the car. My ride height is 7" in the rear and 6.5 in the front (long ways off of the suggested 5" and 4.5"). When i try to tighten the spring (with wheel off the ground) the whole threaded sleeve is turning. Is there a trick to adjusting these shocks? I see the QA1 spanner (at Summit) but i doubt very much there will be room to use this on the fronts. Will this spanner work on the Koni adjuster ring? What are the thrust sleeves for in that kit? I guess you have to try to hold the male threaded piece with big channel locks?? Should we be putting a little grease on the sleeve to help it turn easier? Any help on this would be appreciated.
Before you suggest this.
The set screw is backed out and i have never tightened it.
Dan,
I have installed the 9" 450 front and 10" 275-425 QA1 springs on the Koni shocks. I made up the adjuster nut about 1/4" past snug prior to installing back on the car. My ride height is 7" in the rear and 6.5 in the front (long ways off of the suggested 5" and 4.5"). When i try to tighten the spring (with wheel off the ground) the whole threaded sleeve is turning. Is there a trick to adjusting these shocks? I see the QA1 spanner (at Summit) but i doubt very much there will be room to use this on the fronts. Will this spanner work on the Koni adjuster ring? What are the thrust sleeves for in that kit? I guess you have to try to hold the male threaded piece with big channel locks?? Should we be putting a little grease on the sleeve to help it turn easier? Any help on this would be appreciated.
Before you suggest this.
The set screw is backed out and i have never tightened it.
Tell her that! OK Here's the deal! The fronts need an 8" as both Factory Five and I spec regardless of the shock and it is best to install the fronts upside down so you can get to the spanner nuts and remember that you have two snap ring grooves in the Koni' and you can relocate the sleeves as needed.All the manufactures recommend the use of anti-seize on the large brenel threads to keep them from galling.The QA1 wrench will not fit the Koni adjusters, you must use a wrench with a pivot or just take the weight off and do them by hand. Remember to roll the car and bounce on it after adjusting as there is a lot of contact patch movement and resulting bind in the FF33 front suspension.If you put the snap ring at the groove closest to the shock eye and install the nuts only 1/4" from the end with the not suggested available from Summit 9" spring you should get close on your height with the recommended tire.I also don't suggest the variable rate spring for this application.Oh yeh! the rears must be installed with the opposite direction!
Hope this Helps
Dan
Tell her that! OK Here's the deal! The fronts need an 8" as both Factory Five and I spec regardless of the shock and it is best to install the fronts upside down so you can get to the spanner nuts and remember that you have two snap ring grooves in the Koni' and you can relocate the sleeves as needed.All the manufactures recommend the use of anti-seize on the large brenel threads to keep them from galling.The QA1 wrench will not fit the Koni adjusters, you must use a wrench with a pivot or just take the weight off and do them by hand. Remember to roll the car and bounce on it after adjusting as there is a lot of contact patch movement and resulting bind in the FF33 front suspension.If you put the snap ring at the groove closest to the shock eye and install the nuts only 1/4" from the end with the not suggested available from Summit 9" spring you should get close on your height with the recommended tire.I also don't suggest the variable rate spring for this application.Oh yeh! the rears must be installed with the opposite direction!
Hope this Helps
Dan
Shiiiiiit! I bought the wrong springs. Dont know how i confused 8 and 9" but i did. In the front, i'm running 245/45-17 that are about 25.25 tall. The inner adjuster sleeve is closest to the shock eye and the outer adjuster nut is 2" in. With that, the front ride height is 6.5". Long ways to go to get to 4.5! At this ride height the angle of the lower control arms is approx 6 degrees front horizontal angling down toward the wheel. 2" lower ride height will make the lwr control arm close to level. I think i will change out the springs to 8". Good thing returning thru Summit isnt difficult. I still am wondering how you adjust the springs when the inner (male thread) piece is turning also. Maybe never seize will help. Right now mine are dry. To be continued. Thanks Dan
I was able to get down to 5" ride height in the front with the 9" 450# springs and there is still adjustment to go lower so i will stay with these 9" springs. I may in fact raise it up a bit because the control arms are almost exactly level now and I would like to see a slight downward angle out toward the wheel. On the rear, I have installed 10" 225-475 variable rate springs. The rear is currently at 6.5 and is adjusted as far as it will go with the inner adjustment sleeve in the upper position. I could get lower ride height by moving the inner sleeve to the lower position and will try tonight but i may run into the same interference as others have.
Any of you that are just starting your build, I would strongly suggest that you check the dampening position of the Koni shocks. Mine were not in the softest position as stated in the FF5 manual. There is a good explanation of how to adjust the dampening by Tom Veale near the beginning of this thread. I would also suggest that you leave the spring loose (approx 1/2") with regards to the adjuster sleeve prior to installing on the car. I tie wrapped the spring to the upper cap so it is centered. On the fronts, I made the mistake of tightening the adjuster too far prior to putting the shock on the car and then could not loosen the adjustment sleeve once it was on the car (even after taking weight off) and had to take the shock back off the car just to back off the nut. I also put some never-seize on the adjuster threads which helps a lot once the shocks are on the car.
I am a lurker from the kit airplane world (Van's Aircraft RV-4, RV-10 and RV-12) day dreaming about building a FF33. In that world there are those like Dan and Tom who have helped all of us build better airplanes.
Dan and Tom have by their hard work and willingness to share their experience multiplied their efforts helping all of us to build better cars suited to our own individual goals.
I was able to get down to 5" ride height in the front with the 9" 450# springs and there is still adjustment to go lower so i will stay with these 9" springs.
Hi Brett, The 9" will work fine and allow pretty much all the adjustment you might ever need on the fronts. Some of this depends upon how much offset one has on one's wheels. My front wheels are a bit deeper dish than most, so there's a bit more fulcrum effect on mine. Even so, at 6" ride height at the front of my car there's still close to 2" of adjustment on the 9" spriings should I ever want it lower.
Quote:
On the rear, I have installed 10" 225-475 variable rate springs. The rear is currently at 6.5 and is adjusted as far as it will go with the inner adjustment sleeve in the upper position. I could get lower ride height by moving the inner sleeve to the lower position and will try tonight but i may run into the same interference as others have.
I think you'll be fine with the 10" rears even with the sleeve retainer at the bottom of the shock. Remember that the adjuster nut will be pushing the spring "up" and away from the axle brackets.
Quote:
Any of you that are just starting your build, I would strongly suggest that you check the dampening position of the Koni shocks. Mine were not in the softest position as stated in the FF5 manual.
The shocks are shipped set at the 2nd to softest position and give a ride slightly harder than diamonds! Yes, set them to full soft before installing.
Just a bit of anti-seize compound on the threads makes adjustment without damage to the sleeves much easier.
I had a broken screw driver with a shaft that was about the right diameter for the spanner for shock adjusting. I just cut off the shaft short enough so I could get a 1/4 turn at a time on the nuts. That worked fine.
Best regards,
__________________
Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Thanks Tom,
Last night I moved the inner sleeve on the rears to the lower position and reset the dampening to softest setting (yes they were in the middle position). The shocks do just clear the rear axle bracket so I'm good to go. I'm now at 5" in the rear and 4-1/2 in the front with plenty of adjustment both directions. Now i think I'll wait to adjust further until i get the body on. There is a very noticable difference in how much the car moves when i push on it. Before i couldnt hardly move it at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Veale
Hi Brett, The 9" will work fine and allow pretty much all the adjustment you might ever need on the fronts. Some of this depends upon how much offset one has on one's wheels. My front wheels are a bit deeper dish than most, so there's a bit more fulcrum effect on mine. Even so, at 6" ride height at the front of my car there's still close to 2" of adjustment on the 9" spriings should I ever want it lower.
I think you'll be fine with the 10" rears even with the sleeve retainer at the bottom of the shock. Remember that the adjuster nut will be pushing the spring "up" and away from the axle brackets.
The shocks are shipped set at the 2nd to softest position and give a ride slightly harder than diamonds! Yes, set them to full soft before installing.
Just a bit of anti-seize compound on the threads makes adjustment without damage to the sleeves much easier.
I had a broken screw driver with a shaft that was about the right diameter for the spanner for shock adjusting. I just cut off the shaft short enough so I could get a 1/4 turn at a time on the nuts. That worked fine.
We recently had a customer purchase two of our 9" silver powdercoated 250lb QA1 springs (#35411, $36 each) and install them on the rear of their 33. They moved the 8" 350lb FFR springs to the front and are enjoying the new softer ride. (29% softer rear, 30% softer front) The total cost for this change was 2 x $36plus $13 2-day shipping via Prority Mail Flat Rate Box. The springs are on the Breeze website here: http://www.breezeautomotive.com/deta...900&cat_id=47#
Mark Reynolds
Breeze Automotive
508 533 6455
__________________
Mark Reynolds Breeze Automotive 508 533 6455 Office 508 612 0393 Mobile
Mk3 Roadster, EzePak Master 3-Link Mass-Flo EFI, Breeze/QA1 Externally Single Adjustable Coil Over Shocks, Breeze Adjustable Front Sway Bar, Vintage Race Seats, Hidden Body Mounts, Power Steering, Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel, Torsen Diff w 3.27's, Stewart Warner Maximuim Performance Gauges, Breeze Quick Release Steering Wheels
Last edited by Mark Reynolds; 10-27-2011 at 12:02 AM..
That's yet another option for people with tender bottoms. Maybe we'll get a report from the person who did the change up and find out how they like it.
Best regards,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Reynolds
We recently had a customer purchase two of our 9" silver powdercoated 250lb QA1 springs (#35411, $36 each) and install them on the rear of their 33. They moved the 8" 350lb FFR springs to the front and are enjoying the new softer ride. (29% softer rear, 30% softer front) The total cost for this change was 2 x $36plus $13 2-day shipping via Prority Mail Flat Rate Box. The springs are on the Breeze website here: Breeze Automotive Factory Five Racing
Mark Reynolds
Breeze Automotive
508 533 6455
__________________
Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Cold WI Temperatures don't make the ride better....
I did a 250 mile round trip a couple of weekends ago with outside temperatures around 50°F. In the summer, the Koni's were barely okay with 80+°F temps but now they're back to being rather unforgiving. The drive was mostly on Interstate roads and I think I remember each and every concrete joint on the journey. It was like getting CPR for the whole trip! I had to adjust my breathing to accomodate the Bumps!
So, I'm going the next step and ordering a set of QA 1s with poly bushings from Dan Ruth for the car. This will give me something to do over the winter. Chances are I won't get to assess them until next Spring as the Salt Trucks are all loaded and ready to spread their stuff if we see a single snow flake.
When I get them on and a few miles of driving, I'll report back on this next step. Springs helped, but the Koni's are just a bit too much for this light a car on Wisconsin's public roads.
Best regards,
__________________
Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Last edited by Tom Veale; 11-08-2011 at 09:36 PM..
Hi JW, I talked it over with Dan and will be using the Proma Star shocks. There's a "single adjustable" version that the adjuster acts on both the jounce and rebound valving. It costs about the same as the other single adjustable, but that other one only adjusts the valving in one direction.
The Proma Star also has a double adjustable shock, but it's pricy and I don't think for my intended use the extra price is justified.
Best regards, Tom
__________________
Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Well, it's certainly the most affordable option for all four corners thus far. I'd say that unless you're going to autocross it, try it! It's probably going to work the shock a bit more but for the miles you'll put on them it could be just fine.
.......I talked it over with Dan and will be using the Proma Star shocks, a "single adjustable" version that the adjuster acts on both the jounce and rebound valving.........
First off, I have about 6500 miles on my car and have been fiddling with the ride for quite a while. Most of those miles are "street" and "highway" miles. I've also put on about 500 miles of high speed road course laps. The car needs no changes if you're going to strictly use it for autocross or high speed track days. If you live north of the Mason/Dixon line and know about frost heave and potholes, chances are you'll desire some taming of the ride harshness, too.
Well, like Dan said earlier on this subject, changing to a better shock is the main solution to the harshness issue. I bought the PromaStar shocks from Dan R, installed them and now have about 150 miles on them over all sorts of surfaces. I don't think I have the adjusters "fine tuned" yet, but they are far kinder than the Konis. When I set the QA1 shocks to about their midpoint (18 possible settings from full soft to full firm), they move about like the Konis do at their softest setting. Setting them to "9" makes the car ride about like the Konis on their softest setting, too. So, I have 8 choices that are softer or firmer from which to choose. The adjuster nob is handy and easy to use with just one's fingertips. Just count the "clicks" and you're done.
It's still only about 50°F outside here in WI, so I'm not sure where the final settings should be for warmer weather or after these shocks are a bit more broken in. Right now I set them to the softest setting to experiement. After the driving I've done, I don't think for the street I'll go much firmer. The fronts might get a click or two more firm, but the rears seem just about right where they are. Warmer weather and/or taking the car to a road course probably will require some experimenting with the adjusters.
While this is an expensive option, it has had the most dramatic effect on ride comfort of any of the changes I've made. Handling seems very controlled even on the softest setting. I've only done one 'burnout' since installing them, but had no wheel hop either. Weight transfer to the rear under hard acceleration seems to have improved, too.
So, if your unsure what to do about the ride, there are several possible things discussed here. It becomes a matter of time, energy and expense. Of course all of it depends upon the car's use and your own keyster's sensitivity. I hope this thread has been of value to other builders here.
Best regards,
__________________
Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Last edited by Tom Veale; 05-08-2012 at 07:22 PM..
Continuing "Final Report" for the change from Konis to QA1s....
I continue to rack up miles on #007 with another tank full of gas gone with the new QA1 shocks. The ride is quite a bit improved over how it was with the Konis.
More than just the "ride" issues with the Konis, there has been another change that is very noticeable. It's in cornering. I'd worked very hard on getting "bump steer" out of the front end of the car. I decided early on that the suggested ride heights that work well for autocross don't work very well on the street. So, I reset things and have been far happier since. My attempt had been to try to find the center of the suspension's travel range when the shock and spring were off the car. Then, I set the springs to have the car's "at rest" height give me approximately that same "center of travel." Then I used a bump steer "kit" (a long bold and hardened spacers) to get the tie rods working in harmony with the suspension travel. The car dialed in to essentially zero bump steer, but still didn't "feel" right.
I've mentioned before that the car seemed oddly "darty" on the turn-in of a curve at highway speeds. I'd steer in and then the car would tend to 'self-steer' in further after it should have "set" for the corner. What I now believe was occurring was there is initial weight transfer from steering in, but the tires were taking up most of that. Then there is a secondary transfer once the Konis started to hydraulically compress/shorten on the outside and release/extend on the inside. It's a "slow motion" effect that feels as though the steering rack gets progressively "faster" as you steer into a corner. I'd never "felt" anything quite like it and was blaming bump steer. I didn't know where to "turn" to solve this problem (so to speak).
Because the Konis are so stiff and slow to react to direction change, it gives this odd feedback on turn-in. This isn't "bump steer" at all, think of it as being more like slowly releasing your floor jack! After changing out the Konis to the QA1s at first it seemed as though this oddity had gone away, but I wasn't sure. I thought maybe it was just that I'd not driven the car much since last Fall. Now that I've driven on the QA1's a fair distance, I'm convinced that the hydraulic "jacking" and slow response time is the source of the odd sensation. It truly is "gone" and the car takes a "set" heading into the apex of a turn far better than it did before.
This seems to be an unanticipated 2nd (and major) benefit to using the QA1 shocks. I changed to them for "ride", but the improvement in steering makes the car far less spooky than it was on the brick solid Konis. I'm copying Dan Ruth on this note as well, so he is aware of the change/improvement in steering response. For Interstate speeds, I'll probably set the QA1s a bit firmer than I currently have them, but not much. Also, for track days they may need a bit firmer setting, too. But for now, I'm delighted with the improved comfort and also the far less peculiar turn-in characteristic that seemed impossible to "adjust" away. It was the Konis all the time.
Overall, it's my impression that the Koni fluid and valving are designed for a far heavier car and will never work right on a 2250# vehicle driven on the Streets.
Best regards, Tom
__________________
Tom #007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010) V.I.R.U.S. (Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Last edited by Tom Veale; 05-11-2012 at 06:41 PM..
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It's probably going to work the shock a bit more but for the miles you'll put on them it could be just fine.
QA1 PromaStar Shocks - Final Report
Linear Mode
